oop w/ mid PP mulway paired flop

Submitted by : genjix

PokerStars Game #30015242558: Holdem No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2009/07/02 10:39:53 ET
Table Alekto 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Melo-Anthony ($13.05 in chips)
Seat 2: Swaro ($2.20 in chips)
Seat 3: deadfan93 ($10 in chips)
Seat 4: Zw1eback ($1.85 in chips)
Seat 5: krank07 ($1.70 in chips)
Seat 6: el-pertur09 ($2.10 in chips)
Seat 7: Aleeeeeeeex! ($4.85 in chips)
Seat 8: genjix ($12.85 in chips)
Seat 9: goody453 ($1.95 in chips)
krank07: posts small blind $0.05
el-pertur09: posts big blind $0.10

Holecards
Dealt to genjix
Aleeeeeeeex!: folds
genjix: raises $0.30 to $0.40
goody453: folds
Melo-Anthony: calls $0.40
Swaro: folds
deadfan93: calls $0.40
Zw1eback: folds
krank07: folds
el-pertur09: calls $0.30

Flop (Pot : $1.65)

   
el-pertur09: checks
genjix: bets $0.80
Melo-Anthony: calls $0.80
deadfan93: folds
el-pertur09: folds

Turn (Pot : $3.25)

   
el-pertur09 leaves the table
genjix: checks
Melo-Anthony: bets $1.10
Sadon76 joins the table at seat #6
genjix: folds
Uncalled bet ($1.10) returned to Melo-Anthony
Melo-Anthony collected $3.10 from pot

Summary
Total pot $3.25 | Rake $0.15
Board  
Seat 1: Melo-Anthony collected ($3.10)
Seat 2: Swaro folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 3: deadfan93 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Zw1eback (button) folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 5: krank07 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: el-pertur09 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Aleeeeeeeex! folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 8: genjix folded on the Turn
Seat 9: goody453 folded before Flop (didnt bet)

lol? check/call remaining streets at a reasonable price for sure. then again.. im 6max and this is FR

check fold flop prolly. Have to give up to reverse implied odds. People can have an 8, they can have a FD who has about 50% equity against you they cann have 99/TT/JJ

they can also have nothing.
get to showdown cheaply here.

This is appalling. He can have flush draws, lower pps, even highcards here. And he bet ONE-THIRD of the pot. Unless this guy is the world's nittiest nit, you can't ever c/f here. As played, trying to get to showdown cheaply seems optimal, but I think c/fing the flop is better.

fish also sometimes think Ax is the nuts on two pair boards.

pretty sure i call the turn bet and re eval the river

On July 02 2009 12:56 ytricky wrote: check fold flop prolly. Have to give up to reverse implied odds. People can have an 8, they can have a FD who has about 50% equity against you they cann have 99/TT/JJ

but what about that we capitalise on the dead money some % of the time. vs 2 players it is profitable to cbet this flop. vs 4, no.

but then we also get calls from 66, 55, 44, 33, 2x and we also protect our hand from hicards

... so do people think the flop is a bet?

also the turn. for those who think it's a bad fold... is he really value betting worse here? i also didnt call cos i have another street to play.

yes he is most likely betting worse hands here

On July 03 2009 10:04 genjix wrote: Show nested quote + On July 02 2009 12:56 ytricky wrote: check fold flop prolly. Have to give up to reverse implied odds. People can have an 8, they can have a FD who has about 50% equity against you they cann have 99/TT/JJ but what about that we capitalise on the dead money some % of the time. vs 2 players it is profitable to cbet this flop. vs 4, no. but then we also get calls from 66, 55, 44, 33, 2x and we also protect our hand from hicards ... so do people think the flop is a bet? also the turn. for those who think it's a bad fold... is he really value betting worse here? i also didnt call cos i have another street to play.

Yes you are right we will get called by 66 55 44 33. I dont think anyone has alot of 2s in his range. The thing is, we also get called by fds 8s and 99/TT possibly JJ. So really i dont think our equity is alot different, than if we had A high and you would not cbet A high in this kind of multiway pot would you?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

475,200 games 0.009 secs 52,799,999 games/sec

Board: 8c 2c 8d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.388% 47.69% 00.69% 226644 3294.00 { 77 }
Hand 1: 51.612% 50.92% 00.69% 241968 3294.00 { JdJh, JdJs, JhJs, TT-22, AcTc, Ac9c, A8s, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KcJc, KcTc, Kc9c, Ks9s, Kc8c, Kc7c, Kc6c, Kc5c, Kc4c, Kc3c, Kc2c, QcJc, QcTc, Qc9c, Qc8c, Qc7c, Qc6c, JcTc, Jc9c, Jc8c, Jc7c, Tc9c, Tc8c, Tc7c, 98s, 9c7c, 9c6c, 87s, A8o }


We are basically getting the money in flipping and will have to forfeit the pot often when we have the best hand OOP. And this being 4way someone is guarantied to have a hand.

this is what im trying to say:

1 in 3 times we need to win the pot if bluffing

but vs the range of 4 people is it prof to bet knowing a) we pick up the pot uncontested x% of the time and b) our hand is good y% of the time

we also have 2 more streets to play OOP. but the fact its a multiway pot makes it v unlikely he would ever be bluffing

If the PFR bet half pot on the flop and once called checked the turn I would stab at this either on turn close to 100% (unless I had marginal hand with showdown value) expecting PFR to have overcards mostly..... There so much garbage he could be betting this with and once you check the turn you are holding up a big "I haven't got much" sign. I would expect if you called turn a blank river would go check check and you would be ahead 80%+


EDIT:

On July 03 2009 17:31 genjix wrote: but the fact its a multiway pot makes it v unlikely he would ever be bluffing

This is NL10 - i don't think that's true unless you know he plays ok? And it's not multiway on the turn.

On July 04 2009 05:23 4Kingell wrote: If the PFR bet half pot on the flop and once called checked the turn I would stab at this either on turn close to 100% (unless I had marginal hand with showdown value) expecting PFR to have overcards mostly.....

but you play 6max. im like really sure that doing that in FR vs an EP raiser is a leak in a 4way pot.

and even if hes bluffing with overs, im still only 85% vs that hand. idk maybe the turn was a call.. im just not unsure if id be able to play river profitably after.

On July 03 2009 14:02 ytricky wrote: + Show Spoiler + Show nested quote + On July 03 2009 10:04 genjix wrote:   On July 02 2009 12:56 ytricky wrote: check fold flop prolly. Have to give up to reverse implied odds. People can have an 8, they can have a FD who has about 50% equity against you they cann have 99/TT/JJ but what about that we capitalise on the dead money some % of the time. vs 2 players it is profitable to cbet this flop. vs 4, no. but then we also get calls from 66, 55, 44, 33, 2x and we also protect our hand from hicards ... so do people think the flop is a bet? also the turn. for those who think it's a bad fold... is he really value betting worse here? i also didnt call cos i have another street to play. Yes you are right we will get called by 66 55 44 33. I dont think anyone has alot of 2s in his range. The thing is, we also get called by fds 8s and 99/TT possibly JJ. So really i dont think our equity is alot different, than if we had A high and you would not cbet A high in this kind of multiway pot would you? Text results appended to pokerstove.txt 475,200 games 0.009 secs 52,799,999 games/sec Board: 8c 2c 8d Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 48.388% 47.69% 00.69% 226644 3294.00 { 77 } Hand 1: 51.612% 50.92% 00.69% 241968 3294.00 { JdJh, JdJs, JhJs, TT-22, AcTc, Ac9c, A8s, Ac7c, Ac6c, Ac5c, Ac4c, Ac3c, Ac2c, KcJc, KcTc, Kc9c, Ks9s, Kc8c, Kc7c, Kc6c, Kc5c, Kc4c, Kc3c, Kc2c, QcJc, QcTc, Qc9c, Qc8c, Qc7c, Qc6c, JcTc, Jc9c, Jc8c, Jc7c, Tc9c, Tc8c, Tc7c, 98s, 9c7c, 9c6c, 87s, A8o } We are basically getting the money in flipping and will have to forfeit the pot often when we have the best hand OOP. And this being 4way someone is guarantied to have a hand.

so what i said 2 posts above... this stove is his _calling_ range. but based on the fold equity we have vs 3 peoples ranges + our hand equity when called, betting half pot can be profitable i think.

its very nice u provided so much info about ur opponent