100NL HU, 2 pair good?

He is decent, 60/40 33% aggr frequency, earlier i saw him bluff 3 streets in 3bet pot, also loves to float.

Submitted by : staxxx

***** Hand History for Game 1700118795 *****
$100.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, June 29, 12:33:57 ET 2009
Table Lomami No DP Heads Up Real Money
Seat 8 is the button
Seat 3: Timsan $143.80 USD
Seat 8: Hero $117.70 USD
Hero posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
Timsan posts big blind [$1.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
Hero raises [$1.50 USD]
Timsan calls [$1.00 USD]

Flop (Pot : $3.50)

   
Timsan bets [$2.00 USD]
Hero raises [$7.00 USD]
Timsan calls [$5.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $17.50)

   
Timsan checks
Hero bets [$14.00 USD]
Timsan raises [$48.00 USD]
Hero calls [$34.00 USD]

River (Pot : $113.50)

   
Timsan bets [$86.80 USD]
Hero calls [$60.70 USD]

shoving turn or flatting is fine depending on how the game is going
im never ever folding 2 pairs HU on that board

FOLD HES GOT KQ

Don't think we can raise turn without a good reason but we need reads and such. If he can valuebet thin (QJ etc) or bluffs a lot I guess we'll have to call but I'm not in love with it. If he has you it's 44, JT or 87s most of the time I'd guess.

On June 29 2009 10:54 DustySwedeDude wrote: Don't think we can raise turn without a good reason but we need reads and such. If he can valuebet thin (QJ etc) or bluffs a lot I guess we'll have to call but I'm not in love with it. If he has you it's 44, JT or 87s most of the time I'd guess.

are you seriously thinking about folding 2 pairs in a HU?

Certainly looks like he's got you beat. How often has he been donking the flop?

HU is difficult to post advice on b/c it's so read/game flow dependent. A lot depends on whether or not he's capable of c/r the turn as a bluff. Most "standard" HU players would almost never be bluffing there, in which case his range is going to crush you and you can just fold the turn.

If I'm playing the hand I probably get confused on the turn, call, and probably fold the river. I think his line is very rarely going to be a bluff given your description of him.

On June 29 2009 13:22 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2009 10:54 DustySwedeDude wrote: Don't think we can raise turn without a good reason but we need reads and such. If he can valuebet thin (QJ etc) or bluffs a lot I guess we'll have to call but I'm not in love with it. If he has you it's 44, JT or 87s most of the time I'd guess. are you seriously thinking about folding 2 pairs in a HU?

When our seemingly decent opponent takes a super strong line on one of the worst turns we could have seen, folding 2 pairs has to be considered.

why is turn a bad card?
because he may have TJ? lol?
if he have us beat who fucking care you reload and get his money
wtf folding 2 pairs
-.-
it obv depend on game flow and vilain but without no info Lol@ folding 2 piars

his donk bet is 21%, check/raise 6% (from 250 hands) but there were no similar hands earlier and i was confused what to do.

Shove turn, your line is worse but not that bad. Just don't fold.

On June 29 2009 14:09 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: why is turn a bad card? because he may have TJ? lol? if he have us beat who fucking care you reload and get his money wtf folding 2 pairs -.- it obv depend on game flow and vilain but without no info Lol@ folding 2 piars

You're funny.

Poker's not about absolute hand strength, it's about relative hand strength. "LOL I HAVE TWO PAIR HU" isn't an argument. Break down his possible ranges logically and then assess the strength of your hand with known information. I don't think in this situation it's a slam dunk fold, but I definitely think it's more likely he's got us beat given the information from OP, and I wouldn't feel good stacking off here.

if he have us beat who fucking care you reload and get his money

That's a really, REALLY stupid statement.

On June 29 2009 15:24 Benzooor wrote: Show nested quote + On June 29 2009 14:09 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: why is turn a bad card? because he may have TJ? lol? if he have us beat who fucking care you reload and get his money wtf folding 2 pairs -.- it obv depend on game flow and vilain but without no info Lol@ folding 2 piars You're funny. Poker's not about absolute hand strength, it's about relative hand strength. "LOL I HAVE TWO PAIR HU" isn't an argument. Break down his possible ranges logically and then assess the strength of your hand with known information. I don't think in this situation it's a slam dunk fold, but I definitely think it's more likely he's got us beat given the information from OP, and I wouldn't feel good stacking off here.   if he have us beat who fucking care you reload and get his money That's a really, REALLY stupid statement.

Your reads are way way off. I MAY fold vs a player who seems decent with no history, but with someone who has fired a 3 barrel bluff in a 3bet pot and "loves to float", forget it. If you fold here you probably shouldn't play HU, or at least not vs anyone who is capable of bluffing: you can't just fold the top of your range vs them because they get aggro.

i'd prob fold river - mostly due to the fact that you min opened preflop, his implied odds are huge

Also important to note - with the exeption of 86, every hand in his range has at least 1 pair, and most people dont turn decent pars into bluffs HU like Q9, they show it down a HUGE % of the time

btw this would be a lot easier if you had more reads: how does he play his bluffs (ie does he fire all streets, or does he got for c/r? does he play draws aggressively, bet sizing tells, his 3betting range or frequency). Thinking this over it's somewhat marginal but I think shoving turn is the best. KQ is kinda dubious, 78 is plausible, TJ can happen, but ppl will have very large bluffing and semi-bluffing %'s too to balance those out.

On June 29 2009 15:35 TalentedTom wrote: i'd prob fold river - mostly due to the fact that you min opened preflop, his implied odds are huge Also important to note - with the exeption of 86, every hand in his range has at least 1 pair, and most people dont turn decent pars into bluffs HU like Q9, they show it down a HUGE % of the time

Isn't folding our hand for a 1/2 pot bet on the river, vs a player who has 3 barrel bluffed, the worst line? He'd have to be shutting down a large % of the time on the river if he was bluffing for that to be true, but seeing as he's 3 barrel bluffed he's prob the type to continue with the bluff here too. I think if you want to fold it has to be on the turn.

edit: did i get leveled

In the 3 barrel hand i had 78 called 2 streets on a A7xxx board but his 1/2 river bet looked good so i folded and he showed 22. The timing was the same as this hand - quite fast bets.
Floated me twice, the second time i check/shoved and he folded. Next hand he still has $60 stack I call his 3bet with A9 and reraise his cbet all in on a 335 board he snapped with AK.
No other interesting hands, the match was getting a bit boring before this hand.

A lot of opinions here, you will confuse me even more :D

On June 29 2009 15:57 staxxx wrote: In the 3 barrel hand i had 78 called 2 streets on a A7xxx board but his 1/2 river bet looked good so i folded and he showed 22. The timing was the same as this hand - quite fast bets. Floated me twice, the second time i check/shoved and he folded. Next hand he still has $60 stack I call his 3bet with A9 and reraise his cbet all in on a 335 board he snapped with AK. No other interesting hands, the match was getting a bit boring before this hand. A lot of opinions here, you will confuse me even more :D

I wouldnt consider folding at all given this history - im thinking more about how to play a Q/8/J river or get value from Qx /8x on the turn vs calling to let him bluff river.

staxx that information is pretty helpful in building the image of the player.

I am really not a tight player HU, and I've played a lot of HU, this is very different from an opponent just being aggro. He is taking a line that really doesn't look like a bluff, I'd be surprised if he showed up with nothing even given the additional history. It's not an easy fold but I think we're behind enough to fold.

bigbb33 you at least give reasoning behind your argument, thanks.

Turn is closer to a shove / fold spot (i didn't see stack sizes earlier) if you wanna continue you HAVE to shove, mostly due to the fact that he has half his stack commited on a very drawy board, so hes pot commited with 100% of draws, it's almost impossible for you to determine which draw he can be on so if you think you are ahead of his range you gotta shove, otherwise fold) Flatting turn with these stack sizes should be a mistake

Furthermore, in the future make notes of what kind of boards / hands he is 3 barreling, with these super general reads almost nothing can be determined it's just a guessing game

you are 100% owned, people dont just randomly bet/call and then check raise the worst turn possible, simply because 87s/KQ/JT/TT/44/99 are all part of YOUR range, yet he is the one being aggresive, its an insta fold imo