Cash Game Player Asks a Stupid Tourney Question

Can someone explain to me why it makes sense to rebuy in a a rebuy. I get that an add-on increases your EV because you will have a bigger stack (and relative stack size is important), but doesn't a re-buy do the opposite? I mean you'll be coming in short (right? You don't get to average stack size, right?), so your natural edge will be decreased (Though you may still have a positive ROI). If I'm understanding this right, the correct play would be to use your add-on and then never rebuy (as far as EV/ROI is concerned).

I get that practically speaking players rebuy because they have reads, think they have an edge, and don't want to wait for the next rebuy tourney. But can someone explain to me how this is valuable relative to just entering an identical tournament from the beginning? I've never played one of these, so I'm sure I'm missing something here. Thanks,

Rebuy tournaments is all about being able to create a HUGE stack before getting out of the rebuy period. Its such a small price to win a lot. Thats why alot of people tend to shove preflop with sc, low pp n such.

Because if you are good your edge comes in if you can get 80+ BBs after the rebuy and addon period. Your goal is to win in a tournament by playing from the top and taking control. It's not like cash games when you are trying to be +EV every hand played. It's about stack building, momentum, stealing, and equity. All top tournament pros can work with 5k in chips at 75/150 blinds and still be profitable in a tournament. So it is profitable for them to always rebuy in a rebuy period if you can have more than 30 BBs buy rebuying and adding on at the end of the first hour.

i think i get what youre trying to say and it is indeed a very stupid question lol. are you imagining people will gamble it up in the rebuy period and all get deepstacked from bringing rebuys on the table, and then you will bust your stack and be given an option to either leave the tourny or rebuy for the 3000 chips when the avg stack in the tournament is now 5000? In this case your chance of winning or cashing in the tournament is indeed reduced since you obv have less chips relative to the field than you did at the start, but i think youre confusing this with your EV being reduced. Don't forget that for the average stack to get bigger in a tournament, one (or both) of two things have to happen:

1) people bust out and leave. in this case it becomes more likely now that you'll win the tournament because there are fewer people left. this balances out with the fact the people remaining have more chips on average so that all other things being equal the EV of an additional rebuy is the same as the EV of your first buy

2) others in the tournament spend money on rebuys (often by gambling vs each other to try and create bigger stacks). in this case that extra money spent by others goes into the prize pool. so with the fixed price you're paying to rebuy a starting stack you're now taking a shot at a bigger prize pool and stand to win more money if you make it ITM. this balances with the fact you'll have below avg chips with an initial buyin so that again, all other things being equal, the EV of an additional rebuy is the same as the EV of your first buy

errrrrrrrrrr

once you've lost all your chips, if you don't rebuy, your EV is 0
if you do rebuy, your EV is ROI * buy-in

so.........if rebuying is -EV.......that means you have a negative ROI on your rebuy, which almost certainly implies that you have a negative ROI in the tournament to begin with, which means you're a fish, which means i don't want to explain this to you



srsly rebuying is the same as buying in, so if one is -EV then both are -EV (with almost 100% certainty, i GUESS some kind of exotic case could be made for saying that once you've lost your first buyin, you'll all of a sudden be playing worse than the field with your next buyin, but...cmon) ...not sure how that can be counter-intuitive

if you aren't talking about rebuying after busting, but rather rebuying at the start to get the double stack, here's the way it works:

1. if you are profitable in the tournament field, then that almost 100% goes hand-in-hand with the extension that you are MORE profitable against the same field if the stacks are deeper. so therefore you gladly buyin for a deeper stack to increase your edge. EVEN if somehow your ROI is lower for the double-buyin compared to the single, your dollar-converted expectation will still be higher. so ROI * buy-in < roi * 2 * buy-in (where 'ROI' is the r-o-i on a single buyin, and 'roi' is the r-o-i on a double buyin)
2. if you do have a deeper stack and you have an edge in the tournament, then starting off with more chips will allow you to see more hands on average, which will give you more opportunities to win chips on average, which will translate to an improved table of expected tournament finishes on average.



if you are skeptical about the argument that "the more hands you play, the higher your edge", then ask people what sustainable ROIs are for...hu sng's (min hands), regular sng's (med hands), and MTTs (most hands)

you'll find that max ROIs are... hu < sng < MTT

Thanks for the answers. I definitely understand how it is +EV to rebuy (after you bust) into a tournament if you have an edge, I just don't get how it's higher EV than buying into a similar tournament from the start where you have a similar edge. I definitely also get why it's good to buy in if everyone else is gambling it up and has rebought more times than you... I guess I'm just wondering how it's profitable for good players to get 30 rebuys deep, when most people are far less than that (someone posted a thread about Boosted J being more than that and being the shortstack at his table a few days back). It would seem to me that when people at your table have all your chips, you're rebuying in to a disadvantegeous (relative to you being bigstacked) situation so your ROI on the incremental $100 or whatever, while likely positive, is not nearly as high as your first buy-in.

Put simply, are there situations where your EV in a $100 rebuy is greater on a Rebuy than on the $100 entry or the $100 add-on (ignoring rake), assuming other people are rebuying at a similar rate to you?

Sorry I'm having a tough time understanding this, I'm only good at teh hundred big blinds pokarz.

On November 17 2008 19:44 Ket wrote: i think i get what youre trying to say and it is indeed a very stupid question lol. are you imagining people will gamble it up in the rebuy period and all get deepstacked from bringing rebuys on the table, and then you will bust your stack and be given an option to either leave the tourny or rebuy for the 3000 chips when the avg stack in the tournament is now 5000? In this case your chance of winning or cashing in the tournament is indeed reduced since you obv have less chips relative to the field than you did at the start, but i think youre confusing this with your EV being reduced. Don't forget that for the average stack to get bigger in a tournament, one (or both) of two things have to happen: 1) people bust out and leave. in this case it becomes more likely now that you'll win the tournament because there are fewer people left. this balances out with the fact the people remaining have more chips on average so that all other things being equal the EV of an additional rebuy is the same as the EV of your first buy 2) others in the tournament spend money on rebuys (often by gambling vs each other to try and create bigger stacks). in this case that extra money spent by others goes into the prize pool. so with the fixed price you're paying to rebuy a starting stack you're now taking a shot at a bigger prize pool and stand to win more money if you make it ITM. this balances with the fact you'll have below avg chips with an initial buyin so that again, all other things being equal, the EV of an additional rebuy is the same as the EV of your first buy

So if I understand you right, you want to rebuy when everybody is rebuying more than you, or when nobody is rebuying and you get to take a shot at the same prize money but with a smaller field? That makes sense. Thanks.

what. no. you want to rebuy no matter what. i was just trying to show how it doesnt matter that you'll have below average chips because you seemed concerned that you'll be "short" again if you bust a stack and rebuy

the more money you invest into the tournament, the more chips you get, and therefore the more you inflate your edge by increasing the depth of your stack and the number of hands you will play.

so you just keep piling one +EV investment onto another and...behold, you have an overall investment that has gained additional EV from each of your buyins

i'm not sure how this isn't getting through. you buy-in to the tournament because that investment will show a profit. you add-on because that investment will show a profit. you rebuy because that investment will show a profit. you rebuy TONS of times if necessary because all those investments will show profits too

and clearly it's not more profitable to make fewer +EV investments

Yeah I guess I was just imagining there were infinite re-buy tournaments. I definitely get what you're saying as it applies to the real world.

pssssssssssssssssssh

wobbly should be able to give you a better answer than these clowns

If you enter a rebuy tourney you need to enter with the intent that your buyin will actually be several times larger than the advertised price. The difference is you improve your odds of winning if you get lucky enough and gamble your way up 15 stacks.