NL400 QQ in 3bet pot.

Villain is a reg. Basically only hand that I beat is JJ here. That K on turn totally screwed me up.

Submitted by : phexac

PokerStars Game #22046841550: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2008/11/14 21:23:19 ET
Table 'Pherkad V' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: pk-zipper ($179.10 in chips)
Seat 2: jj_raise ($878.70 in chips)
Seat 3: CASINOICE ($720.60 in chips)
Seat 4: El consejero ($241.80 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($405.40 in chips)
Seat 6: Jschlach ($855 in chips)
pk-zipper: posts small blind $2
jj_raise: posts big blind $4

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
CASINOICE: folds
El consejero: folds
Hero : raises $10 to $14
Jschlach: folds
pk-zipper: folds
jj_raise: raises $36 to $50
Hero : calls $36

Flop (Pot : $102.00)

   
jj_raise: checks
Hero : bets $72
jj_raise: calls $72

Turn (Pot : $246.00)

   
jj_raise: checks
Hero : checks

River (Pot : $246.00)

   
jj_raise: bets $756.70 and is all-in
Hero :

you don't beat shit cause JJ ain't shoving on the river

On November 14 2008 21:35 Python817 wrote: you don't beat shit cause JJ ain't shoving on the river

his name is jj_raise, clearly that statement isnt valid here

Honestly, I think against this particular opponent a 4B shove is more than correct. But given the fact that you flatted the flop, which I also dislike, then I think folding here is optimal.

This all depends on history with him in 3bet pots? Bet / fold turn makes your life easier if he doesn't like to give up pots on flop.

Why would anyone ever c/c AK / AA / KK on a flop like that?

Need more stats / reads / notes!

Oh and 4bet pre is also standard.

I'd 4bet preflop. Don't know the player, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him with TT there although I have seen people take that line with check call a flop bet with just AK before. I'd fold without a read in that situation.

To the last 3 posters... Grass, I did not flat flop. He checked, I bet, he called.

As for not 4betting pre, I do sometimes in this spot, but in this particular case I thought the best way to extract value would be to call his 3bet. I definitely did not not 4bet because I thought my hand wasn't strong enough. My call vs 4bet PF isn't what this post is about.

jjraise sucks and is spastic as hell.. but this isn't a spot where he bluffs a lot.. its more often a weirdly played AA/KK than it's some random AQ.

On November 15 2008 03:12 Trey wrote: jjraise sucks and is spastic as hell.. but this isn't a spot where he bluffs a lot.. its more often a weirdly played AA/KK than it's some random AQ.

Yeah I had the feelling when he shoved I would likely be seeing AA/TT a lot. Sometimes KK. Basically a lock hand where he wanted to give AK or something a chance to bluff at the pot.

Def agreed with your read on that player...

On November 15 2008 01:27 Tycho wrote: This all depends on history with him in 3bet pots? Bet / fold turn makes your life easier if he doesn't like to give up pots on flop. Why would anyone ever c/c AK / AA / KK on a flop like that? Need more stats / reads / notes! Oh and 4bet pre is also standard.

I would,we beat C-bets an d trap in value with AA/KK

Oh and I fold here,I think only hand we beat is JJ but this would be brave for him to shove this turn as I can imagine sometimes we check AK behind after our C-bet gets called on the flop and we get lucky and decide to trap some value in

litte more info on the villian would be good, fold now 4b pre

zZz stop telling the guy to 4 bet pre like it's the answer to this hand plz

Since you played it this way preflop, which is obv totally fine, I'd probably bet ~$110 on the turn and call a shove. As played I don't really see how we can fold river? He probably expects you to be betting your entire calling range on the flop when checked to. Once you check turn, you basically tell him you don't have better than a King here. On river, pot is bloated enough to run a bluff, vs a range that is almost always 1 pair at best / often air. If you had AK in this spot, you'd probably not be asking this same question, and QQ is very close to the same hand strength as AK here so... What seems to be the problem?

On the issue of 4 betting QQ preflop, I think it has more merit when you are out of position, since flatting and playing post flop sucks in those spots. It also has more merit if you got some real aggro preflop history going with the guy, where you are pretty sure he going to look at a hand like 88+ and be like NUTS! With the way you play, I'm almost more inclined to flat everytime with QQ in position rather than 4 bet so people know I can have strong hands when flatting 3 bets in position. Also, I'm assuming most regulars with a half a brain wouldn't stack less then a QQ+/AK range when you 4 bet there.

I think this is a fold. Him check calling implies he has showdown value at the very least, so it makes no sense for him to just shove in here. I mean he'd have to turn a hand into a bluff for you to be good here i think? Looks like he slowplayed a monster, its just too weird a line to be a bluff that often imo.

And i'd usually 4bet pre too. I'm not at all out of line with my 4 bets and people stack off with worse a surprising amount of the time.

On November 21 2008 14:21 JonnyCosMo wrote: zZz stop telling the guy to 4 bet pre like it's the answer to this hand plz Since you played it this way preflop, which is obv totally fine, I'd probably bet ~$110 on the turn and call a shove. As played I don't really see how we can fold river? He probably expects you to be betting your entire calling range on the flop when checked to. Once you check turn, you basically tell him you don't have better than a King here. On river, pot is bloated enough to run a bluff, vs a range that is almost always 1 pair at best / often air. If you had AK in this spot, you'd probably not be asking this same question, and QQ is very close to the same hand strength as AK here so... What seems to be the problem? On the issue of 4 betting QQ preflop, I think it has more merit when you are out of position, since flatting and playing post flop sucks in those spots. It also has more merit if you got some real aggro preflop history going with the guy, where you are pretty sure he going to look at a hand like 88+ and be like NUTS! With the way you play, I'm almost more inclined to flat everytime with QQ in position rather than 4 bet so people know I can have strong hands when flatting 3 bets in position. Also, I'm assuming most regulars with a half a brain wouldn't stack less then a QQ+/AK range when you 4 bet there.

That is basically along the lines of my thinking here. Plus villain is a spazz in my experience...

he has 910 yo

what can have have here that looks at that flop and says aight im going for the stack-a-donk

and if he has the nuts why jam river when obviously hero has 1 pair and is going to fold a lot unless he thinks u connected with a king and might hero but :/ thats just not the best value line for him with the nuts; not even a good one

I like JonnyCosMo's thoughts here but I have played this guy before also.I think this is some overthinking for the player involved.

He has AK/AA/KK just about always for this reason imo:

AK he will mix up his turn check and turn bet but I feel this player is more likely to check more on such a good card for AK to keep JJ/QQ in the hand.

KK obv he can only get value out of draws and it's less likley we have a draw considering villans image no?So thats why he is checking the turn here.

AA same as AK reasoning imo.

River he is just trying to skew your perspective of the hand by shoving,making it apear as he is bluffing.

I really don't like his line at all here but like you said,he is a little spazzy

err, you trapped him by checking turn now snap

KT imo

On November 22 2008 11:55 traktor wrote: KT imo

I think it's safe to say he's never 3betting KT OOP vs UTG raise.

EDIT: Ok, posted this hand a while ago, so now thought it was UTG raise, my bad. Still don't think he's 3betting KT...like ever.