[NL50] 200bb deep, drawy board with TPTK

How do play this? This is how i reasoned step by step. When I went through it, I felt a bit retarded inside so I need some help.

Preflop: I felt like I'd miss out on alot of value by re-raising basically.

Flop: When the original raiser made the cb I thought that I'd just flat and then make a 3/4 pot bet on turn. The other guy flats so I feel like I have to raise it.
I would've called a push by the smaller stack and folded to a re-raise vs. 200bb. I feel like should've made the raise somewhere between $20 and the pot tho instead of just 15.

Turn: The pot is now about $41 and i make it $30 to push out the draws and still not make me committed if he pushes and then c/f the river to any substantial bet. I don't want to check here cuz it will put me in so many gay spots, but if i bet I feel like I lose all value. And if i only make a 1/2 pot bet i'll let him draw.

In retrospect I can't really see how he can have anything else than a draw or me crushed.

I like the bet... but it shouldn't be to push out the draws. It should be to make them pay too much to see a river that will likely not hit them.

I'm actually not a fan of your line here at all.

A. You seem to have a strong urge to play trappy and shit.
B. You're 200BB deep vs one villain, and this makes his implied odds for drawing hands/set mining so much bigger.

Conditions A + B do not at all go well together with a TPTK type hand, especially on a drawy board (flush draw and some random straight draw on the flop). Maybe they would work if you had an absolute monster on a dry flop, but not with TPTK here imo.

I like 3betting the AQ and taking down the pot pf since this kind of play can get you into real hairy spots while deep. As played, your flop raise is a bit on the small side.

I think the value you got on this hand was fine. You keep complaining about missing value, but unless he's bad how much do you really think he will pay you with a worse hand? And if he does start returning aggression, what are you going to do with your TPTK hand? Play for stacks for 200BB? I know I wouldn't.

imo

3bet pre for value
as played checkraise flop bigger / shove turn

otherwise you'll have to flat flop

On October 08 2008 06:47 TallyHo wrote: otherwise you'll have to flat flop

wat

imo he has to decide whether he wants to play his hands like the nuts or not, he can't just raise so small and consider folding but
ofc Id never flat flop

So I should 3bet this preflop?

I'm not complaining about any missed value and I'm definetely not trying to trap here.
I know that the flop raise was too small and said so in my description.

What I'm interested in is if I should:

1. flat or 3-bet preflop? and what size, 8 or 10 dollahs?
2. Is the turn bet fine; $30 into $41?
3. If he calls should I c/c a shove if all draws misses or c/f to any substantial bet no matter what the river card is?
All suggestions on how to play the river are welcome.

calling this pf is perfectly fine

on the flop all three options are quite valid. leading out, calling, raising.

since there is a caller in between i think raising is good.

imo flatting this oop preflop at nl50 can only be justified if you know that utg's opening range is really tight (but then you might be better off just folding it pre). since you don't know him you can definitely 3bet to like 8.50 and get called by worse because he thinks he can play those hands now that you guys are deep (KQ, AJ, other broadway hands, pps, suited aces). 3betting makes this hand way easier to play (note youre oop and it's a squeeze position) because you can really play it like the nuts on good flops and people just suck in 3bet pots. you wouldn't have to fear that you're beat so often (people 4bet AA/KK most of the time (esp deep), AK quite often as well).

anyways, as played once you flat preflop I think you have to play your hand like the nuts on that flop. checkraise way more like 26 to set up a turn shove on good turns (expect to get called by combo draws, worse queens on turn or even worse). this way, there shouldnt even be a river play. if you're afraid of putting your money in the middle you'll have to play your hand on the flop like you'd play for example QJ, QT, QK (just calling his flop bet). imo.