NL50 - When to fold these?

1. He's a passive fish 39/6/0.5. Can I get away from this with his tiny pathetic bets? I guess his passiveness should have shown me he had some kind of strong hand here. But still, those bets are tiny.
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2. His stats are 34/9/1.2 so I guess his raising range is quite tight. He shows extreme strength on the river, plus his stats indicate that he is somewhat passive. I suppose, given his stats, he would be raising stuff like A9 from UTG+1, so is this a clear fold on the river?

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i don't really think there's anything wrong with hand#1, he's betting so small that you're either getting cheap info for later, or you might even be good some of the time, i think he had pretty much the only pocket pair type hand that he can play that way that beats you and if he had some sort of Kx, then he didn't really get too much value

hand 2 i'm not so sure, will try to post another reply later

Yao

what about check/calling river just to see the showdown vs passive villain cheaper? villain could also potentially bluff that spot, and his aggression in this case won't lose you as much money

1 folding to their gaybets at any point of the hand is out of the question. you only need to be good more than 1 out of 7 times on the river. call his "bet" and expect him to have lower pairs, A8s, something like that, some random "bluffs", whatever. but you will be behind alot (Kx). just snap snap snap like you did.

2 his stats suggest he's really fishy/tight/passive so I would probably never donkbet here.. this is just burning money once he calls the flop imo. but if you decide to take this line (leading out on all streets) you have to assume that you got the best hand on the river and you snapcall his shove assuming he has worse, but this is really unlikely given your opponent (so your line sucks imo). start out by checking the flop if you flat PF, youre oop... easy fold on river as played I think - hes not really shoving a 9 there and probably almost never has a 9 (the only thing you beat except for a bluff)

1st hand you don't beat much - river fold is ok.
2nd hand your river call (shove) of his raise is a total spew. "I suppose, given his stats, he would be raising stuff like A9 from UTG+1" - 34/9/1.2 means he has overpair or two overs and FD on the river, since he raised you, guess what. With 34 % VPIP he will only limp with A9, his UTG raising range will be pretty tight. So actually you are beating only a bluff, but I doubt it since his AF is pretty low and you donked at him 3 times.

also if you donkbet the flop, you would want to shut down on turn, at least on river vs this guy I think

Hand 1 I might just fold this multiway flop. You only have 1 clean out if behind.

Hand 2 Someone playing 34/9 isn't raising an unpaired 9 preflop very much. As played you only beat a missed FD so check-call (not that it would make much difference here)

i'm folding the flop all day long in hand 1. any guy who cold calls my 3bet and leads a K flop is gonna get my respect the first time, especially with this other guy calling. i guess if you've seen this passive fish coldcalling 3bets before, i might continue, but otherwise no way.

hand 2: it's hard for me to see a lot of value in leading this flop...

hand 1 if im calling im usually reraising and taking this pot away

Hand#1: From what I've seen at MSNL, donkey fish make really weak fuckin bets with shit theyre not comfortable with, in fact I still have a sticky note that says "donks 3 barrel same bet w/shitty hands!!" (except for the rare occasions when they're building zeh pot). But they will 3 barrel that shit too if not resisted. So if you know he's gonna 3 barrel here and you feel the only way to win is to shut him down, might as well get it in sooner rather than later. 3bet the flop and he might just fold. Again I only say this b/c youre investing about the same anyway by the river without any real chance to improve. Commit that money to a bluff instead and he might just fold. If he doesnt then you know you're beat. And you probably get a free showdown anyway.

Hand2: I like it played as is, otherwise youre giving massive amounts of FE to players who will bluff you off on coordinated boards. But by the river I just check/call and hope to see AJs.

On October 06 2008 08:26 T8Suited wrote: Hand 1 I might just fold this multiway flop. You only have 1 clean out if behind.

I'm very surprised nobody else said this before because I'm probably just mucking it on the flop... especially as played since you 3-bet (which I also don't know if that's the correct play but it doesn't seem bad either, the fish opening UTG makes it an ugly spot since his UTG opening range but flatting can get very ugly on the flop and you are basically set-mining with JJ...) and you get a bet and a call on the flop, your reverse implied are just plain bad...

On the second hand, I know he is raising tight but I think I 3-bet this hand to know where I am... is he at the bottom or top of his range, doesn't get you in this retarded spot... Mostly he folds what you beat preflop and calls/raises what beats you but it makes the hand so much easier to play. Flatting is probably better if you can play perfect on all later streets but you probably can't, not many people can... If you flat, the only way this hand is going to get easy to play and you don't make many mistakes is as you hit a set...

On October 06 2008 20:10 hawking wrote: Hand#1: From what I've seen at MSNL, donkey fish make really weak fuckin bets with shit theyre not comfortable with, in fact I still have a sticky note that says "donks 3 barrel same bet w/shitty hands!!" (except for the rare occasions when they're building zeh pot). But they will 3 barrel that shit too if not resisted. So if you know he's gonna 3 barrel here and you feel the only way to win is to shut him down, might as well get it in sooner rather than later. 3bet the flop and he might just fold. Again I only say this b/c youre investing about the same anyway by the river without any real chance to improve. Commit that money to a bluff instead and he might just fold. If he doesnt then you know you're beat. And you probably get a free showdown anyway. Hand2: I like it played as is, otherwise youre giving massive amounts of FE to players who will bluff you off on coordinated boards. But by the river I just check/call and hope to see AJs.

And you sir, are way overthinking this... you are giving FE to other players in hand 2 because they fucking deserve it, they don't know what they are doing and they are just playing their hands as they see fit... You are trying to exploit them, not outlevel yourself and think of the guy is a competent player and he is trying to bluff you,,,

On October 06 2008 20:10 hawking wrote: Hand#1: From what I've seen at MSNL, donkey fish make really weak fuckin bets with shit theyre not comfortable with, in fact I still have a sticky note that says "donks 3 barrel same bet w/shitty hands!!" (except for the rare occasions when they're building zeh pot). But they will 3 barrel that shit too if not resisted. So if you know he's gonna 3 barrel here and you feel the only way to win is to shut him down, might as well get it in sooner rather than later. 3bet the flop and he might just fold. Again I only say this b/c youre investing about the same anyway by the river without any real chance to improve. Commit that money to a bluff instead and he might just fold. If he doesnt then you know you're beat. And you probably get a free showdown anyway. Hand2: I like it played as is, otherwise youre giving massive amounts of FE to players who will bluff you off on coordinated boards. But by the river I just check/call and hope to see AJs.

I don't think we can profitably shove at any point

Seat 4: rillenbernd ($24.20 in chips)
Seat 5: doncelular2 ($41.05 in chips)

Flop:
rillenbernd: bets $5.50
doncelular2: calls $5.50
Hero : calls $5.50

we obv can't shove here esp because of doncelular2

Turn:
rillenbernd: checks
doncelular2: bets $5
Hero : calls $5
rillenbernd: folds

note the other fish (39/6/0.5) bets now and we cant shove again

but don't fold imo and be surprised what junk they'll show you on those good pot odds (note the drawy flop) and I don't really worry about bad reverse implieds because they don't have much of a stack and are fishies

On October 07 2008 04:10 Kilay wrote: Show nested quote + On October 06 2008 20:10 hawking wrote: Hand#1: From what I've seen at MSNL, donkey fish make really weak fuckin bets with shit theyre not comfortable with, in fact I still have a sticky note that says "donks 3 barrel same bet w/shitty hands!!" (except for the rare occasions when they're building zeh pot). But they will 3 barrel that shit too if not resisted. So if you know he's gonna 3 barrel here and you feel the only way to win is to shut him down, might as well get it in sooner rather than later. 3bet the flop and he might just fold. Again I only say this b/c youre investing about the same anyway by the river without any real chance to improve. Commit that money to a bluff instead and he might just fold. If he doesnt then you know you're beat. And you probably get a free showdown anyway. Hand2: I like it played as is, otherwise youre giving massive amounts of FE to players who will bluff you off on coordinated boards. But by the river I just check/call and hope to see AJs. And you sir, are way overthinking this... you are giving FE to other players in hand 2 because they fucking deserve it, they don't know what they are doing and they are just playing their hands as they see fit... You are trying to exploit them, not outlevel yourself and think of the guy is a competent player and he is trying to bluff you,,,

I totally agree with this as what Hawking is suggesting is pretty much what I've been doing and it's been an expensive learning process at these stakes as it is easy to give too much credit to other players and this they are going to understand what you are trying to do. I think Kilay is spot on and I need to learn from it.

Raise or Fold in hand one. His bet is so small it reeks of wanting to see showdown cheaper so just raise or muck. I prefer mucking.

What type of stats do you run? I normally 3 bet that 1010 from the blinds like that in 6 max. If he 4 bets you can just fold it. If he calls bet about half pot and if he shoves then you should really consider folding since you're flipping with any overcards/flush and the only thing you're ahead of really is A9. As is i do believe that on the river plenty of fishy players will shove the river with any 9 because they have a boat and don't think they are beat... if you really want to see showdown then just check/call..But i really don't think your play in the 2nd hand is horrible, it's very player dependent. Considering you flat preflop his range is wide open he could have a 5 for all we know...

I run anywhere from 19/16/2-3 to 22/18/2.3

ya first hand can be folded, theres a bet and a caller. normally the only scenario where you're ahead here is if the better is full of shit and the caller has a fd or something, it's just way more likely that one of them has a king. its also very possible to raise them though, as the small bet and call indicate weakness from both. when you do call flop, which I think is the worst choice, you can't fold turn or river, the bets are just too small for that. but you could have either gotten away, taken the pot or lost more money on the flop.

i dunno about the second hand, i dunno if hes pushing river with 9 and it might be a fold for that reason, but I also think you need to bet to extract value from 9, so i dont like check calling either.