KK played right/wrong???

dude's been fairly tight until this hand... after this hand he's been going pretty aggro but i think i played it right??? ya'lls opinion??



Submitted by : eightfourO

PokerStars Game #19701906705: Tournament #100869474, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIV (800/1600) - 2008/08/17 - 23:47:26 (ET)
Table '100869474 150' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Hero (59933 in chips)
Seat 2: rclinton5280 (30366 in chips)
Seat 3: kanataholdem (26720 in chips)
Seat 4: minwolf (30996 in chips)
Seat 5: manolika (57427 in chips)
Seat 6: ElectricHaZ3 (33495 in chips)
Seat 7: valsue68 (25995 in chips)
Seat 8: needfaith (49499 in chips)
Seat 9: luckybucket9 (22539 in chips)
Hero : posts the ante 150
rclinton5280: posts the ante 150
kanataholdem: posts the ante 150
minwolf: posts the ante 150
manolika: posts the ante 150
ElectricHaZ3: posts the ante 150
valsue68: posts the ante 150
needfaith: posts the ante 150
luckybucket9: posts the ante 150
rclinton5280: posts small blind 800
kanataholdem: posts big blind 1600

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
minwolf: folds
manolika: calls 1600
ElectricHaZ3: folds
valsue68: folds
needfaith: raises 4900 to 6500
luckybucket9: folds
Hero : calls 6500
rclinton5280: folds
kanataholdem: folds
manolika: calls 4900

Flop (Pot : $23,250.00)

   
manolika: checks
needfaith: bets 4800
Hero : folds
manolika: folds
Uncalled bet (4800) returned to needfaith
needfaith collected 23250 from pot
needfaith: shows (a pair of Jacks)

Summary
Total pot 23250 | Rake 0
Board  
Seat 1: Hero (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: rclinton5280 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: kanataholdem (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: minwolf folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: manolika folded on the Flop
Seat 6: ElectricHaZ3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: valsue68 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: needfaith collected (23250)
Seat 9: luckybucket9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

without good reason i reraise pre

thats the only mistake i thought i could have made... ty

flatting isnt that bed esp with aggressive people @ your table who will try to squeeze and stuff.

Just think about your image a bit, i'm usually the overaggro guy who is squeezing with any2 so it just makes sense to be 3betting

if you are flatcalling with kq/aj and stuff there and just need to add monsters to your range or something than you can justify something like this.

i think your stacks are too deep relative to the blinds and bet size to flat this. if everyone had lower M's, or say everyone had ~ 10 bb's or less I think you can call an open with the intent to shove/call most any, if not every flop. because you are deeper you need to 3bet this because of the dead money in the pot, to protect your hand in what is most likely to become a three way pot if you call (and you would prefer heads up) and you need to play the strength of your hand. you are still going to get lots of value from just about every hand that would open, while at the same time folding lots of Ax hands that would still have ~ 33% against you.

also, fwiw this board is perfect for them to bluff as well. position is a good thing, but the middle man in a 3 way flop, especially if he opened pre flop, is going to bet because he had the initiative and the first villain checked (showed weakness) while you flatted pf and are probably 'unknown' to him, in terms of a hand he puts you on. i think because you are deep, and they are loose, this could be a time i would raise him 2.5x and fold to a shove. it doesnt totally commit you (but does him) and takes the pot from every hand but strong aces. i wouldnt make that move against any opponent, but if they are playing a little loose (not any two cards, but pp's,. broadway, Ax, and some suited connecters) you can exploit that by taking this line to disguise your strength pf, but its better put to use in heads up pots.

raising this flop with KK is as good as raising with 27os

if anything c/c

thanks guys... i ended up getting 226th out of like 3789 players... 9 dollar investment 42 dollar return... hoping i would do better but ran into KJ vs KK on a KJ9 flop :/ that hurt the stack


thanks for the help

Calling preflop is good in a tournament where your opponents are decent, in a smaller buyin tournament you should reraise because people are retarded and wll get it in bad.

Call flop as played

On August 18 2008 04:19 TwistedEcho wrote: Call flop as played

suppose we called, and he fired out second barrel on a blank turn. what to do now? kinda hard to c/c three streets on Ahi board with our cowboys ;o

who said we are check calling three streets.

I'd imagine it will go ch/ch ch/ch and we'll win almost always when he doesn't have the ace

Reraise preflop, UTG open limped you don't want to see a 3way pot

On August 18 2008 04:19 TwistedEcho wrote: Calling preflop is good in a tournament where your opponents are decent, in a smaller buyin tournament you should reraise because people are retarded and wll get it in bad. Call flop as played

BTW, w/ regards to raising preflop -

Against decent players, if we raise preflop here most likely we will either cooler the opponent and get it allin preflop, or he will fold. Its really hard to reraise to an amount here that gives him FE to 5bet light because the smallest we could realisticall reraise to is about 16k, and then if he shoves we'd have to call 34k to win around 70k - its just really unlikely we'd be making a move here and giving ourselves such good odds to fold so he wouldn't shove anything too light on us because he doesn't expect us to fold. Also, most people don't get too out of line in tournaments so its unlikely you'll have history with messing with this opponent with 3bets etc, so when you do 3bet he'll expect you actually have a hand and most of the time would be 5 bet shoving on.

You also aren't reraising to get this HU (sheitan!), because i'd be fine with this being a 3way pot since we are only ~60k deep and the raise preflop is 6500, so its not like we are worried about being outplayed preflop or outflopped - if the other dude calls off 6500 and outflops us with 22 or JTs, good for him but most of the time he'll flop an overpair with 77, or TP with KJ, or a draw and the pot will be so big we'll get the money in really good.

So the reason we call preflop, is to not make it obvious that we have a big hand, it allows weaker hands to come into the pot behind us (not as applicable in this hand since we are on button, but like if UTG raised and we were UTG+1) so when it goes raise/reraise people will fold 99/ATs/AQo etc, but if its raise/call they will squeeze most likely. So it lets weaker players overcall with bad hands, and good players make moves/squeeze. Also it doesn't scare off the original raiser who in these current days will be cbetting almost 100% (which is why we call on an Axx board, because hes always betting that when he has nothing).



However, the obvious reasons for reraising are because our opponent is tight, and therefore will have a big hand most of the time and we want to get the money in asap before he sees an A/Khi board with his QQ/JJ (but since we have two kings we are only worried about 6 cards) and also we get AK allin preflop, whereas most flops he will bet/fold or even occasionally check fold on bad boards like 567.

Also, the lower the buyins (and therefore worse the opponent) the worse they play, and the more willing they are to stack off with crap hands, or see flops with incorrect odds - so in a smaller tournament i would pretty much always reraise unless i knew/respected the opponent or picked up he seemed to play well (which would be really rare). When you reraise, he'll find it really hard to fold AQ, KQs, JTs, 88 and usually call to see a flop - and then you will end up getting allin whenever you can postflop except on Ahi boards (standard would be check behind, call a turn bet, read soul if he bets river), and if he outflopped you its a bad beat.

Hope that helped, basically my point is in smaller tournaments its fine to raise here 100%, but you have to think about why you are raising, and other alternatives and really calling here is fine as another line - just its better suited against better opponents (and aggressive tables when people behind will make moves vs a raise/call when they can't vs a raise/reraise)

On August 18 2008 04:19 TwistedEcho wrote: Calling preflop is good in a tournament where your opponents are decent, in a smaller buyin tournament you should reraise because people are retarded and wll get it in bad. Call flop as played

well said