Silly KJ hand

Submitted by : Baal

PokerStars Game #19009682982: Hold'em No Limit ($3/$6) - 2008/07/22 - 07:04:22 (ET)
Table 'Euaimon' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: cethron ($547 in chips)
Seat 2: ExB1983 ($609 in chips)
Seat 3: ChrisTC01 ($681.45 in chips)
Seat 4: JonnyTilt ($803 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($810 in chips)
Seat 6: PhishorMan ($804.45 in chips)
PhishorMan: posts small blind $3
cethron: posts big blind $6

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
ExB1983: folds
ChrisTC01: raises $18 to $24
JonnyTilt: folds
Hero : calls $24
PhishorMan: folds
cethron: folds

Flop (Pot : $57.00)

   
ChrisTC01: bets $40
Hero : calls $40

Turn (Pot : $137.00)

   
ChrisTC01: bets $110
Hero : calls $110

River (Pot : $357.00)

   
ChrisTC01: bets $185
Hero : folds
Uncalled bet ($185) returned to ChrisTC01
ChrisTC01 collected $354 from pot
ChrisTC01: doesn't show hand
Hero said, "interesting"

Summary
Total pot $357 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 1: cethron (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: ExB1983 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ChrisTC01 collected ($354)
Seat 4: JonnyTilt folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Hero (button) folded on the River
Seat 6: PhishorMan (small blind) folded before Flop

good fold, couldnt play this hand any differently but the way you describe him easy fold pre? you get in too many sticky situations with these type of hands

If I call this pf I'm raising flop. As played I call turn and fold river.

but what do we represent if we raise the flop dusty?

Don't like the call preflop.

On July 22 2008 10:58 Twisted wrote: Don't like the call preflop.

if we like to call with suited connectors & pps here, we need to call with hands like this sometimes to balance, especially if we expect him to double barrel bluff often. Plus lots of weaker jacks in ORs range usually.

On July 22 2008 10:43 DustySwedeDude wrote: If I call this pf I'm raising flop. As played I call turn and fold river.

Yep, I think if you call KJoff pre you need to put a move on this flop, but I guess you already know that. I think you played this fine on the turn and river fwiw.

fold turn

facing that bet, nothing about your hand is good there.

the problem with just flatting is you pretty much represent what you have. A mediocre pair with a straight draw, becase your more than likely bombing a FD on this flop. You can rep a much stronger range by raising up the flop or turn.

how can we possibly have something more than a draw if we flat preflop and raise this flop
only thing that he 'd have to consider with a pair is 44 ,assuming we 3bet frequently preflop
perhaps if he has seen us call with monsters pf in position to trap?

seems preety standard ChrisTC01 is preety straight forward, he will 2 barrel a decent range here, but not 3, i doubt he even VB's AK here

Folding preflop is out of the question the only option is to either 3bet it or to flat it, and i mix those up and Chris is too tight to be 3betting this kind of hand that doesnt have good implied value postflop.

When i call turn i probably show that i have this kind of hand, pair + straight draw or KQ playing cautiosly thats why his river smallish bet felt so strong the thing is i think folding turn is so weak cuz maybe he is 2nda barreling with JQ, AK or even AQ (just to play it easier), so im not sure anyone else has some input?

So u think its fine Tom? yeah he is never vbetting AK here, and quite frankly as played it seems extremely marginal and a loosing play imo.

On July 22 2008 10:54 lebowski wrote: but what do we represent if we raise the flop dusty?

KQ+ and decent draws?

Also, vs a nit I think I 3bet (as a semibluff, obv) or dump this pre cause if I hit tp I want to be able to go with it pretty far and not see it as a pure bluffcatcher.

do we 3bet KQ on that flop against a nit? what for? so we get stacked with overpairs or AQ and for the wild hope he will stack off with QJ which anyway we valuetown hard if we flat?.

You dont make sense at all, u want to 3bet because if you hit TP (K or J) u want to go with it hard??? do you think you are ahead against a nit's range on a K high flop if u stack off with KJ?... maybe not even in a J high board, i 3bet from time to time but mainly as bluff and only to outmanouver him postflop but saying because i wanna play TP fast in a 3bet pot and not in a normally raised pot doesnt make any sense at all since we just narrow his range even more.

ok, I'll try to break this down:

If he's a total nit pf our hand doesn't do well vs his range, thus we can't call unless we're going to try and outplay him with a weakass holding post flop which just seems silly vs someone somewhat competent. If we reraise this we'll probably fold out a lot of the crap that dominate us, I don't think he'll call us oop with like KQ or AJ that often and if he does we'll just take a not and own him later. Also, it's very likely that he 4-bets AK so if we hit our K we can be somewhat happy and if we hit a J we'll either go with it (if he pulls moves in 3-bet pots or does the bad-TAG-favorite move and call JTs and JQs oop vs rr's) or be cautious. That and the fact that we'll cbet and win a ton vs a uncreative nit makes me feel that we're far more +ev 3-betting then calling. I only ever call this vs people who's game I really feel is superweak cause I hate getting into hard spots post flop. And I'm running at like 28% VPIP.

Also, my standard is to fold pf if villian is in any way competent and can play decent i 3bet pots (shoves/floats/fucks around a lot). Playing fit or fold (ish) and not even raising when you hit one of the best possible flops you can ask for equity wise vs a decent player with a strong range is simply not profitable so you shouldn't call this pre unless you're a lot stronger then him post flop.

people really need to stop saying interesting after they lose hands

i absolutely disagree with almost anything you have said, how is it silly to outplay him with our "weakass" holding when i miss? its quite easy im in position and i can do it fairly often, if we 3bet we are obviously folding many hands that dominate us often, but if i 3bet i have a worse hand postflop than 56o, u randomly assume he 4bets always AK.... wtf, do you think a nit is gonig to stack off on a King high flop with KT? or that he is going busto with JQ on a Jxx boad? this hand has horrible post flop odds in a 3bet post against him, however i do 3bet from time to time but not often cuz i rather do it with a SC or a PP.

Postflop i dont see why this is a must raise to you wtf... i love the implied odds of my hands tbh plus the kind of hands he could have here are the ones that wont ever fold if i play it fast or hands that totally missed and are going to surrender to further action, he is not folding even KQ against me unless something really scare falls in the next streets so playing this slow on the flop is perfectly fine in my eyes.

basically ur saying i have bad implied odds with this hand in a raised pot, but not in a 3bet flop, anyway preflop is not the discussion here if u want to be a nit and fold KJ that is fine, i like KJ there and i think its profitable.


PS: not very helpful steve.

looks decent but prob fold turn bc your outs are counterfeited sometimes (both 9 and A now have much lower implied odds bc of the K)

dunno what people are talking about saying fold preflop or raise flop, that's just non-sense

i mean you can fold preflop if this villain is EXTREMELY tight, but come on, yeah right. as long as you don't look like some super-loose idiot right now then calling here is totally standard and solid

raising flop is also bad for exactly the reasons baal said, it's completely unnecessary to raise the flop in order to win the pot and it's probably a big spew to raise/call a shove so why risk getting blown off of a hand that has great implied odds and tons of equity anyway

thank you sir, you might be right on folding turn thats why i asked its a bit close since JQ is very likely to 2 barrel here since its a bit more akward for him to C/C or something.

The thing is i might get into deep shit with the 9, J or the K