[nl25] 3bet situations, part 2:folding preflop ?

can you guys just "proofread" kinda line check again, i guess raising up kq in a blind was kind of a bad idea but i was on a table with a lot of guys i wanted to have a tpgk type hand against (very limpy)

http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/486902 raise kq from bb, get 3bet by early/mid pos, fold

here i was kind of thinking it was more of a standard type raise

http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/486905 3bet ak get min4bet fold

i dont know what else to do besides fold in these situations, is the overall situation looking okay if i consider the ev of making the original raises?

Wtf? awful folds. I know the minraise is scary as shit sometimes, but when this happens all youre looking to do is flop an absolute monster. If you miss, fine. C-betting works a substantial portion of the time as most of these minbetters still give you respect. You would be surprised the retarded shit people try to pull at NL25 with their 3bet minraises, and unless you just sat down at the table, i would suggest 4betting their asses for a reaction. At least if youre sure you will end HU. And we're talkin a man raise, 3x his bet, no minraising yourself. You will either find he's the type of donk who shuts down to this aggression and who knows wtf he was raising with the first place, or he's the classic pot builder who only does it with AA/AK.

I play a lot of NL25, and I'd say 65% of all minbetting comes from ridiculous trash. Theyre either tryin to be cute, deceptive, tilting, or just stupid. The other 35% are the nut hunters that will stack you when you hit TPGK.

And remember, you really want to be in position when doing this no matter what. AK can probably be 4bet OOP against a minraising donk, but all others should take some serious consideration.

IMO

#1 ez fold he is OOP and vs a limp min re Most of the time he is beat and I dont recopmend playing OOP with KQs on a re raised pot

#2 is a lil more player dependant but i would fold IMO cuz u cnat call unless ur gonna go broke he has 18 bucks and he puts 1/3 of it pre if u dont wanna fold then shove

1: I snapfold. 10% maybe 4bet. Limp minraise is just not something you want to be messing with, and you're calling for "2pair, straight, and flush value". Which might be fine if there wasn't noticeable portion of his range that won't actually pay you off.

2: Shove or fold. I shove...people put you on a button steal so much in this spot you're very often ahead.

IMO you run into AA/KK too often in these stakes against min3bet/4bets, and folds are fine. Though it's player dependent as always.

Well apparently im way off base so ill just stfu. But I play NL25 exclusively right now on stars and while I used to fear the 3bet minraises, these days I give it no respect after paying to see enough showdowns to understand whats going on. IMO it's weak wannabe-negreanu-mindfuck shit until they prove otherwise. Im not sayin I'll call down with Ace high, or make any crazy call down at all. But if I hit my monster draw im gonna play it way harder than I would against a normal TAG/LAG player who doesnt fuck around with the minbetting.

You guys are snap folding a minraise with these hands? I understand the predicament you can find yourself in when you call the minraise with AK and hit top pair. But just play it cool and either check/call to showdown if youre that nervous or pick up your opponent definitely has you beat, or fold anything but an absolute monster. I mean, in any of these situations youre always getting at least 2:1, and folding is really going to confuse your table image. KQs could flop an absolutely devastating hand if your opponent really is doing this with AA/KK/AK, I think it would be worth it as the PFR'r here to at least make the call and hope to catch your miracle flop. Again im talkin flopping a full house or OESFD. It does happen.

I dunno, maybe calling these hands is a leak I have yet to plug in my own game. But minraisers are in a class of their own. Most of the time they do it frequently, and they cant help themselves, it's their thing. When they drop in, you will find it happening over and over again. I know letting yourself getting trapped by pot odds is often what the minraiser wants, but STILL! I mean, you gotta make the call with KQs right? Again, only continue with an absolutely pimp flop.

NO u cant call hoping to flop a full house WTF hmm i call 27s cuz i can flop a full house and crush him LOL? man ur oop just let it go ur calling for a monster which is highly unlikely then if u do flop it it is not garanteed ur gonna stack him unless villain always has AA or KK so its a highly -EV play IMO.

and on the AK if u call there and hit ur A or K u HAVE to play for stacks u cant chk call down thats horrible. but then again u should never call its shove or fold.

how about this one. i hate this situation but i think i kind of think, as jorge said, shove or fold and with a guy being squeezed inbetween us and no position.. bah

its just a bit of a needle that the ace hits i guess.

is this fold standard? keep in mind im still really young in my poker training

(my considerations: the raiser is a full stacker who made a properly-sized raise imo, theres a retard inbetween us.. i'm out of position, AK flops terribly and i dont want to shove with 2 behind me)


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UGH i hate this too this is more player dependant but most likely ur up vs KK AA QQ and AKs, AK u beat neither so unless u have a note that he re raises with less i insta muck... then again baal calls me a NIT.

Keep in mind thou ur Raising fairly early i dont think he is gonna get cute with less than QQ here

on a side note thou I shove AKs 25% of the time

*regarding hand, yes I fold this easily here if the guy hasnt raised in an hour and shows this kind of aggression against an otherwise normally aggressive player such as myself*

Just watched my girlfriend's PFR get minraised by 36s on the button. She stacked him with a K high flush. Fuck the min 3bet, it's pussy shit. Nuff said. These donks are minraising b/c theyre fucking idiots, not b/c theyre leet psychopath's that know they can put you allin and you just have to call to see. Maybe the minraise has more merit at higher stakes, but I assure you at micro stakes, the minraise is garbage most of the time. It's easy enough to evaluate how you hit the flop in relation to the probability of them hitting the flop to know when to continue or when to bail.

I say if youre the PFR and you get MINBET, the dead money from earlier limps plus the donkiness of it all is worth a call to flop the monster. You look like an idiot raising and then folding preflop like that, and youre going to get all sorts of weird calls when people see you pitching your hand.

Im not saying youre calling your BB to a minbet with 72s b/c of the odds. Im saying if you are the PFR, you've got to call the minraise regardless of position, if not to flop a miracle, to save face. What do you think when you see someone fold here? "oh they must have had 45s" so clearly you fold your most disguised hands when ever someone challenges you. It's just so weak. You cant look like the guy who raises a wide range but folds to any sign of aggression, and only stays with the pot when he has a strong starting hand. Easiest read in history and everyone will always fold to you.

I think all hands are pretty standard, probably because I'm some sick nit or something... I can see myself shoving AKo but not without a read because I've seen less and less aggrofish on the tables lately and so I tend to give them respect, he only exceptions are the Germans, obviously.

Ok so I took a stab at NL50 today b/c ive been doing well at NL25. First time ever venturing into this limit, and I must say the minraise is completely different than the lower stakes. In fact, i am definitely in the "snap fold" boat with the aforementioned hands after what I observed. I faired all right, actually +2 buyins for first day, but not with any particularly beautiful play, just hitting my draws. Anyway I definitely spewed off about $20 playing the minraisers both in position and out of position with the type of hands that get you in trouble.

I think as most people probably already realize, the minraise is typically player dependent. Some people do it for one reason while others do it for another. At microstakes it's usually retardation. Starting at NL50 and probably above playing the minraisers can get you in trouble with the wrong hands and bad position.

On July 18 2008 10:25 hawking wrote: *regarding hand, yes I fold this easily here if the guy hasnt raised in an hour and shows this kind of aggression against an otherwise normally aggressive player such as myself* Just watched my girlfriend's PFR get minraised by 36s on the button. She stacked him with a K high flush. Fuck the min 3bet, it's pussy shit. Nuff said. These donks are minraising b/c theyre fucking idiots, not b/c theyre leet psychopath's that know they can put you allin and you just have to call to see. Maybe the minraise has more merit at higher stakes, but I assure you at micro stakes, the minraise is garbage most of the time. It's easy enough to evaluate how you hit the flop in relation to the probability of them hitting the flop to know when to continue or when to bail. I say if youre the PFR and you get MINBET, the dead money from earlier limps plus the donkiness of it all is worth a call to flop the monster. You look like an idiot raising and then folding preflop like that, and youre going to get all sorts of weird calls when people see you pitching your hand. Im not saying youre calling your BB to a minbet with 72s b/c of the odds. Im saying if you are the PFR, you've got to call the minraise regardless of position, if not to flop a miracle, to save face. What do you think when you see someone fold here? "oh they must have had 45s" so clearly you fold your most disguised hands when ever someone challenges you. It's just so weak. You cant look like the guy who raises a wide range but folds to any sign of aggression, and only stays with the pot when he has a strong starting hand. Easiest read in history and everyone will always fold to you.

U saw 1 person min re with 36s SO WHAT!? Your calling OOP to save face? fine save your face but i like saving money. Its not matter of what they are doing it with cuz ur still only playing your hand if u hit something which is 33% of the time. Second the fish are not gonna even notice if u raise and fold if they do they are gonna think OHHHHH so he bluffs, so know when u raise with AA or KK ull get reraised and ull stack him cuz they are gonna think "OH he is just trying to bluff me off cuz he folded so many times before he must be tired" dude calling a 3bet OOP with KQ is -ev if you gonna play it only when u hit something. Second theres no need to play fancy at 25NL just stick to ABC. Just pitch it and play the next hand, instead of calling and then going ZOMG WHAT DO I DO do i check do i bet etc etc.

True enough.