HU - fighting the miniraise

Well a few weeks ago i were playing HU against a 600nl regular, i wont type his nick so he doesnt find this thread lol but lets just say he is a funny dinosaur sex (lol lest see who gets it) which is ridiculously loose and agressive in 6max games.

He destroyed me hard with the PF mini-raise mainly because of betting proportions, let me explain.

He mini-raise every hand in the button, 100% PFR in the button, even 72o he was going to pop it to $12 (600nl) i tried to counter it by 3betting very light to $42, many times he folded but then he started to 4bet to $100 which left me in a really really ugly spot, if i flat here oop im gong to get outplayed very often, if i 5bet to like $200 i commit myself to a shove and he can easily fold/shove depending on his hand crushing me, also if i mini-raise to like $150 its only 50 more for him and if he has any kind of non- horrible hand he can also outplay me postflop and all my choices in general seemed EV-, even flat calling oop against a "ANY 2" range.

So how do you play against this? do you overbet your 3bet? or do you make a very very small one? simply play oop?.

i know it sounds silly but the betting proportions just gave him such a huge edge i didnt know how to fight against that properly

Call more hands OOP and take more stabs because of your stack to pot ratio.

wow this is a very interesting question, i am anxious to hear thoughts. good post baal.

just play more hands OOP and start minraising the button yourself if you think the strategy is so optimal

sounds like you're adapting pretty well, he's probably just running range hot

Ive been thinking about how to defend against this strategy for a long time myself. I mean basically he's having his way with you. Youre playing every pot on his terms. He's always in position, and he makes the same move with bluffs/monsters. Ive been thinking about how to defend against this, and I can only think of one thing that is +EV. Fold every single time you have nothing worth playing. I would also suggest doing the exact same thing to him to neutralize the blind thievery. This whole strategy is based around deception, so when the tables are turned I think hes going to have a hard time making the hero calls when you bet half pot on the flop.

If you call 100% of his minbets eventually he'll know youre either folding on the flop, or folding on the turn unimproved. This is even more costly. And the few times you connect with the flop, he'll actually have a hand and stack you. Just dont play into the strategy.

Well "mirroring" his strategy might put me on a close to even situation, however since he has more experience on it he still has an edge with that if we had the same skill level, and even so the objective here is not to mirror it but to counter it and to give me an edge over it.

lol isn't actually that good(hes not bad tho). Ive played him on 2 occations. The worse way you can counteract the minraise is by 3betting more. Your inflatting the pot OOP with marginal holdings, and you also have the 4bet to worry about which will destroy you. If you start 3betting MORE your playing right into his hands.

Mainly the biggest advantages of the minraise is, it forces opponents who can't adapt and 3bet tons, to try and inflate the pot OOP so to (in their mind) reduce the positional disadvantage, but its obviously not the case, and just makes thing worse. It allows people to call 3bets because they have to be smaller(btw the worse thing u can do is try to 3bet BIG like 4.5x cuz that just makes the 4bet that much sexier for them).

So basically those are the advantages of the minraise. You are FORCED to flat more preflop. Hands like K5s and 78o become much more "flattable". Best way to counteract it is by adapting leading and checkraising flops more into your game (and checkraising turns but that is more complicated hehe) also you dont want to overdo it. Also, anyone that doesn't know how to use the minraise to counteract frequent 3bettors is likely to get owned by frequent 3betters.

EDIT: I guess i should add one more thing, that is the fact that checkraising now becomes more powerful when you're flatting more because your range for 2 pairs becomes incredibly larger, and so its easier to balance your ranges. Also tho, make sure you mix in leading tho, and not jsut checkraising those 2pairs. or else he will just pot control often with hands like weak top pairs and your gonna burn money trying to stab turns and barrel rivers. (not to mention ur gonna induce 3bet bluffs from real good players)

i know the exact answers to this question

i'll tell you for 1000$

i'm not kidding

also there is no need to mirror his strategy when YOU'RE in position, as he does not 3bet THAT much, he probably does it less than the average. (among good regs)

He among with me is probably the laggiest 600nl player.

On July 16 2008 17:42 Rekrul wrote: i know the exact answers to this question i'll tell you for 1000$ i'm not kidding

thats ridiculous dan.

On July 16 2008 17:42 Rekrul wrote: i know the exact answers to this question i'll tell you for 1000$ i'm not kidding

lol

how is it ridiculous
the guy has a headsup bracelet

On July 16 2008 17:42 Rekrul wrote: i know the exact answers to this question i'll tell you for 999$ i'm not kidding

obv you need to start limping all your buttons to show him you can play gayer than him.

When his min raising he is not inflating the pot big enough when he has a monster hand. He is going to win a lot of the small pots.

Increase your range to call slightly more weaker hands (u guys will probably be playing every other hand). 3 bet a little more marginal/stronger hands so that you have control when u want to play pots > 100 dollars.

I dont see the problem really. I mean, its not much diffrent than playing a loose agressive villian who raises 3x preflop with everything. The only diffrence is that villian is stealing cheaper, but in turn gives you a better price to see a flop on your big blind. Also, villian is bloating the pot less when he is in position which obviously is a good thing for you when you are in the BB.

Dont start 3-betting like a madman, you are just bloating the pot oop giving him sweet implied odds to own you in position. Stick to your "normal" 3-betting range and just 5-bet shove Ace rags, monsters and some garbage if he 4-bets you a ton.

Other than that I think casinocasino supplied the best advice in this thread so far.

a GREAT thing to incorporate is to call a little bit more oop and to lead alot of pots. it becomes difficult to start check/raising a bunch of flops (seeing as how small the pots are and how easy it is for him to outplay you). on the other hand, by leading alot of pots you can put a little bit of pressure on him by forcing him to float/repop light alot.

maybe my logic is a little off, but the calling alot and leading was giving me quite a bit of trouble for a little bit.

On July 16 2008 17:56 ggplz wrote: how is it ridiculous the guy has a headsup bracelet

haahahah

I played this reg on tilt today who was 3-betting me like a madman so I started minraising preflop. He kept 3-betting me like every other hand and made some really huge 3-bets from time to time despreate to build a pot big enough to get him unstuck and thats like the worst possible thing you can do. Its a very retarded "counter" which is super ez and profitable to play against.

On July 16 2008 18:07 SakiSaki wrote: I dont see the problem really. I mean, its not much diffrent than playing a loose agressive villian who raises 3x preflop with everything. The only diffrence is that villian is stealing cheaper, but in turn gives you a better price to see a flop on your big blind. Also, villian is bloating the pot less when he is in position which obviously is a good thing for you when you are in the BB. Dont start 3-betting like a madman, you are just bloating the pot oop giving him sweet implied odds to own you in position. Stick to your "normal" 3-betting range and just 5-bet shove Ace rags, monsters and some garbage if he 4-bets you a ton. Other than that I think casinocasino supplied the best advice in this thread so far.

Yes u miss the point as i said this is different because the betting proportions preflop give him a sick edge, if we were playing with regular sized raises my 3betting wouldnt be so easily exploited by 4betting, read the first post again to see what i said about proportions.

I still dont see the problem as long as you 5-bet shove a good range.

you shouldnt make it about a preflop raising war anyways, I mean, if you dont 3-bet a ton he will probably not 4-bet a ton, and if he does just tighten up your 3-betting range and widen your 5-bet shove for value range.

if i open my 5bet shove range he only invests $100 and i would shove $500 more... how u dont see how i play right into his hands if i do that.

oh lol I though it was 400nl. Well, then you just have to ajust your 5-betting ranges in a diffrent way. If you or him insist on making it a preflop war start 5-bet/folding garbage(yes this can be done without commiting yourself wat?) and 5-bet call acerags and big hands.

I dont see alot of diffrence in ajustments in this spot compared to what you do against someone who 3-bets way to much oop, appart from the fact that you obv arnt calling with anything.

To me it sounds like you just 3-bet the guy too much and he ownzored you in position obv.

On July 16 2008 18:26 Baal wrote: if i open my 5bet shove range he only invests $100 and i would shove $500 more... how u dont see how i play right into his hands if i do that.

why do you have to go nutty preflop

I mean I dont think it is all that hard to figure out

re min raise pf !

On July 16 2008 18:56 Jamie217 wrote: I mean I dont think it is all that hard to figure out

PLZ ENLIGHTEN US ?

On July 16 2008 18:56 Jamie217 wrote: I mean I dont think it is all that hard to figure out

good to know o_o care to share, or why post? or are u gonig to sell it for 1k?

Jamie217 is too good amirite
while u have been struggling vs this guy Baal, Jamie has been schooling him!

Well i struggled our brief HU session, i dont mind him at all in 6max actually its quite fun cuz it gets really wild

no all Im saying is that it is like some of the others have said, like casino and saki

On July 16 2008 19:15 sOah wrote: Jamie217 is too good amirite while u have been struggling vs this guy Baal, Jamie has been schooling him!

and seeing as you hinted that you wanted to sell the answer as well I dont understand how you can get all bent outta shape from my post

On July 16 2008 19:35 Jamie217 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 16 2008 19:15 sOah wrote: Jamie217 is too good amirite while u have been struggling vs this guy Baal, Jamie has been schooling him! and seeing as you hinted that you wanted to sell the answer as well I dont understand how you can get all bent outta shape from my post

i always wondered what a person would look like if a snake ate them
ty

On July 16 2008 20:02 ggplz wrote: i always wondered what a person would look like if a snake ate them ty

it's what a person would look like if they cared about what everyone said

i can't tell if rekrul is being sarcastic or not lol. love that guy

On July 16 2008 17:56 ggplz wrote: how is it ridiculous the guy has a headsup bracelet

great point. pay the man and learn from the master. don't be a nit

it's time u watched eagle vs goat again baal.

On July 17 2008 16:04 LandisReed wrote: i can't tell if rekrul is being sarcastic or not lol. love that guy

He is not, but im not even a HU specialist so i wouldnt pay that much for that info, and even if i were i wouldnt it only because i find the whole concept of selling advice that way to be appalling so no thx

selling advice is same as coaching, lol

isn't 3 betting a lot bad unless the guy you are playing is very bad?

All you are doing is building pots oop for him..

ignore the minraise it means nothing

pretend you're playing with an inverted button but take advantage of the fact that he can't raise his button if you limp

ignore the fact that he has the "betting lead" because he doesn't

proceed appropriately

On July 17 2008 16:35 BigRed0000 wrote: isn't 3 betting a lot bad unless the guy you are playing is very bad? All you are doing is building pots oop for him..

ding

On July 16 2008 18:11 SakiSaki wrote: I played this reg on tilt today who was 3-betting me like a madman so I started minraising preflop. He kept 3-betting me like every other hand and made some really huge 3-bets from time to time despreate to build a pot big enough to get him unstuck and thats like the worst possible thing you can do. Its a very retarded "counter" which is super ez and profitable to play against.

the advantage to the minraiser is that he gets to build pots in position... and since he is minraising 100% of the time, he can still play optimally to your 3bets (that is, you cannot exploit his strategy [except for the fact that you can limp in without fear, although this exploitation is minimal]).

i think the best way to learn to defend against this style is to try it out for yourself. ^^

wow very nice post myth(inverted button)

you hit the correct stategy 100% there

On July 17 2008 16:04 LandisReed wrote: i can't tell if rekrul is being sarcastic or not lol. love that guy

it's ez just read one sentence below where he sais he's not joking

Actually I like Myth's advice the best. When you break it down, the minraise HU isnt actually representative of anything. While villain is guaranteeing himself small pots, he is never getting to take advantage of big pots, b/c you wont give it to him without having what you would normally have to inflate the pot anyway, a good hand. You win most of the big pots, he wins 70% of the small pots, and you can still take a few of those away from him as well. I think minraising HU on the button in the long run will never be that profitable so long as you control the pot as best as you can OOP. Versus angry 3better's I think minbetting could really fuck someones day up if done with enough finesse. And you can always resort to the SNG's if youre a HU master b/c he can only minraise the first couple of levels before he is forced into "normal" play.

On July 17 2008 18:25 hawking wrote: You win most of the big pots, he wins 70% of the small pots, and you can still take a few of those away from him as well.

Your statement is false. The whole idea of minraising the button is to play larger pots in position, where the minraiser has positional advantage. It's not like the minraiser is going to create a large pot w/ any two cards though (if he's knows how to play the strategy profitably).

On July 17 2008 18:25 hawking wrote: I think minraising HU on the button in the long run will never be that profitable so long as you control the pot as best as you can OOP.

This is far from the truth as well. 100% minraising the button is nearly unexploitable (again, assuming competent minraiser). Claiming that pure pot control will let you win against a minraiser is naive.

uhm if you can't take the fight preflop to your advantage consider some flop/turn adjustments after flatting pf.

hall of fame forum now pls
a hu newb like me can learn some shit up in here

On July 17 2008 18:52 thundza wrote: This is far from the truth as well. 100% minraising the button is nearly unexploitable (again, assuming competent minraiser). Claiming that pure pot control will let you win against a minraiser is naive.

I whole heartedly agree. In my first response on page 1 I describe the anguish of playing against this style and how you have very few options other than to fold your blinds to avoid getting fucked up. I think minraising every button HU, (which I think people give Negreanu credit for pioneering?) is a rather brilliant strategy for HU only games, which is why I think one of the few things to do is to just mirror it. Baal wants more, wants to know how to exploit it, how to gain an edge over it. Im not sure there is any. And I dont think pot control OOP will help you win against the minraiser, but rather limit your losses. What do you think?

On July 17 2008 16:39 [vital]Myth wrote: ignore the minraise it means nothing pretend you're playing with an inverted button but take advantage of the fact that he can't raise his button if you limp ignore the fact that he has the "betting lead" because he doesn't proceed appropriately

you are so good at this game corwin cole! who taught you these things

wat? Stop talking about the brilliance of minraising the button 100% and how its "unexploitable"


Nigga please, its like such a trivial part of a HU match its silly. Who cares rly? Except baal and I still dont know why.

But doesnt it give him an edge postflop if you are "completing" a lot, since he will have some idea about your range yet you have no idea what he can have ?

no

k

On July 17 2008 16:17 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On July 17 2008 16:04 LandisReed wrote: i can't tell if rekrul is being sarcastic or not lol. love that guy He is not, but im not even a HU specialist so i wouldnt pay that much for that info, and even if i were i wouldnt it only because i find the whole concept of selling advice that way to be appalling so no thx

probably less appalling when it's you who is charging for information, yes?

On July 20 2008 11:00 n0rthf4ce wrote: Show nested quote + On July 17 2008 16:39 [vital]Myth wrote: ignore the minraise it means nothing pretend you're playing with an inverted button but take advantage of the fact that he can't raise his button if you limp ignore the fact that he has the "betting lead" because he doesn't proceed appropriately you are so good at this game corwin cole! who taught you these things

UHHHHHHHHHHH UMMMMMMMMM :-X

corwin doesnt KNOW

On July 20 2008 11:40 SakiSaki wrote: wat? Stop talking about the brilliance of minraising the button 100% and how its "unexploitable" Nigga please, its like such a trivial part of a HU match its silly. Who cares rly? Except baal and I still dont know why.

because im not a HU especialist and i got destroyed by it? am i not allowed to ask?, oh and for the record a few days i ago i tried it on another agressive regular and he did exactly what i did and he got destroyed rofl damn this shit is so sweet against people who havent seen it before.

what are you a specialist at, baal, other than racing cars

making enchiladas

On July 20 2008 19:18 Rekrul wrote: what are you a specialist at, baal, other than racing cars

in the same branch as u, boasting and ego-trips

On July 20 2008 15:37 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2008 11:40 SakiSaki wrote: wat? Stop talking about the brilliance of minraising the button 100% and how its "unexploitable" Nigga please, its like such a trivial part of a HU match its silly. Who cares rly? Except baal and I still dont know why. because im not a HU especialist and i got destroyed by it? am i not allowed to ask?, oh and for the record a few days i ago i tried it on another agressive regular and he did exactly what i did and he got destroyed rofl damn this shit is so sweet against people who havent seen it before.

wtf sakisaki is talking to thundza not you

lol take it easy kid, everything's gonna be alright

just breathe

On July 20 2008 20:49 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2008 15:37 Baal wrote:   On July 20 2008 11:40 SakiSaki wrote: wat? Stop talking about the brilliance of minraising the button 100% and how its "unexploitable" Nigga please, its like such a trivial part of a HU match its silly. Who cares rly? Except baal and I still dont know why. because im not a HU especialist and i got destroyed by it? am i not allowed to ask?, oh and for the record a few days i ago i tried it on another agressive regular and he did exactly what i did and he got destroyed rofl damn this shit is so sweet against people who havent seen it before. wtf sakisaki is talking to thundza not you lol take it easy kid, everything's gonna be alright just breathe

ORLY?

On July 20 2008 11:40 SakiSaki wrote:wat? Stop talking about the brilliance of minraising the button 100% and how its "unexploitable" Nigga please, its like such a trivial part of a HU match its silly. Who cares rly? Except baal and I still dont know why.

He was saying he didnt understood "why i care" which is in fact a very stupid question.

lol owls

im bumping this after reading about it in a blog, i hope that's ok. [vital]Myth, you advocate imagining playing with an inverted button, in which case you would be raising a wide range, but then you say not to 3bet in your next post which is the same as raising in your inverted button scenario. what am i missing? thanks.

min3bet minbet flop

well take for example you min opening 100% of hands on the button in a 6-max games, what kind of players blinds would annoy you the most (assuming no shortstackers)

On December 08 2008 17:27 teej1985 wrote: min3bet minbet flop

this is a very funny counter strategy - assuming you decide to min 3-bet every hand you decide to play take ~top 35% of hands, you would be OOP with the betting lead with a superior range similar to old school stars HU

On December 08 2008 17:27 teej1985 wrote: min3bet minbet flop

minbet / minraise every possible decision is 100% unexploitable.

I think he meant inverted button as in you're the sb and he's the bb. So just call because his minraise doesn't mean any sort of strength, and he doesn't have the option to raise you.