200NL tough spot multiway with QTo

Submitted by : Grass.nS)

PokerStars Game #18677055782: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/07/08 - 16:25:50 (ET)
Table 'Philippina III' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: uYNamron ($400.15 in chips)
Seat 3: DennisGPunkt ($197 in chips)
Seat 4: kissa333 ($221 in chips)
Seat 5: umpa21 ($255.25 in chips)
Seat 6: lacman730 ($200 in chips)
kissa333: posts small blind $1
umpa21: posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to uYNamron
lacman730: folds
uYNamron : raises $5 to $7
DennisGPunkt: folds
kissa333: calls $6
umpa21: calls $5

Flop (Pot : $21.00)

   
kissa333: bets $12
umpa21: raises $22 to $34

cold call

there's nothing else you can do

I agree can't really see what else you can do but cold call.

you have the Ts and umpa made a small raise against a fish who is leading weak

pretty weird but i think this is a fold. i mean it's basically never total air from umpa, and since you have the Ts it's not TsJs or Ts9s, so i think he has 88, KQ, QJs, Q8s, Q9s, possibly AQ but not that likely bc he'd prob squeeze pre, and possibly AXss but i'd say he can't have AKss and possibly not AJss either, so there are very few AXss combos that he's overcalling preflop too.

i really think he has QJs, 88, Q8s, or KQ way too often for you to call here

Yep I would seriously consider folding, T kicker is a little too weak.

Umpa plays weird...

min-3bet.. to make it more interesting... see how he reacts...

On July 08 2008 14:56 [vital]Myth wrote: you have the Ts and umpa made a small raise against a fish who is leading weak pretty weird but i think this is a fold. i mean it's basically never total air from umpa, and since you have the Ts it's not TsJs or Ts9s, so i think he has 88, KQ, QJs, Q8s, Q9s, possibly AQ but not that likely bc he'd prob squeeze pre, and possibly AXss but i'd say he can't have AKss and possibly not AJss either, so there are very few AXss combos that he's overcalling preflop too. i really think he has QJs, 88, Q8s, or KQ way too often for you to call here

lol i'm way too lazy to really think about umpa's range this hard; i guess having the Ts in our hand really does take out a lot of the hands in his range that we beat

however, i disagree with you about how umpa can never have total air here and i think if you factor that in, then we should cold call and see what the turn is

lol are you serious, who ever has total air here

you'd have to be as stupid as jc tran to have air here as umpa. maybe if he raised bigger, but not when he makes it 34. if you can actually find a hand where a regular raises with air in a spot like this, i will give you money

He could (should) def be raising like 99/TT/JJ (if he doesn't 3b those PF) here, like A8 too to $34

dunno about draws it dpeends on how often the fish donk/folds. and having the Ts does factor a lot here since the big draws gutter/FD are out of his range except J9s

i do not mind a call here as you are in position and a cold call shows a lot of strenght so he will play his hand honestly on the turn in like every situation

hopefully if you call and the fish comes along, ump is not good/tricky enough to like check 88 to you on the turn since it looks like you are going to bet the turn when checked to like always after you cold call the flop

i think that overall this is very player dependent though but as a default i think calling is ok in this spot

On July 08 2008 17:43 [vital]Myth wrote: lol are you serious, who ever has total air here you'd have to be as stupid as jc tran to have air here as umpa. maybe if he raised bigger, but not when he makes it 34. if you can actually find a hand where a regular raises with air in a spot like this, i will give you money

lol why the JC Tran mention.


I flat, since he doent have many combo draws but could be raising with worse imo he should shut down later so its easier to play a turn

On July 08 2008 19:06 mdom wrote: He could (should) def be raising like 99/TT/JJ (if he doesn't 3b those PF) here, like A8 too to $34 dunno about draws it dpeends on how often the fish donk/folds. and having the Ts does factor a lot here since the big draws gutter/FD are out of his range except J9s i do not mind a call here as you are in position and a cold call shows a lot of strenght so he will play his hand honestly on the turn in like every situation hopefully if you call and the fish comes along, ump is not good/tricky enough to like check 88 to you on the turn since it looks like you are going to bet the turn when checked to like always after you cold call the flop i think that overall this is very player dependent though but as a default i think calling is ok in this spot

better to assume that TT and JJ are almost always getting 3bet pre when he has position on a fish, 99 a fair % getting 3bet also. furthermore, even if he *should* be raising 99-JJ on the flop i think most people at this level make the mistake of flatting. i could be wrong about player tendencies in this spot though

On July 08 2008 20:45 Baal wrote: lol why the JC Tran mention.

in april i was playing a bellagio event

200/400+50, 10 handed. tight player raises utg to 1200, JC tran calls in MP with 66 (which is fine given the stack sizes), some other retard to JC's left calls also, and then some old nit who hasn't played a single hand in the 4 orbits he's been at our table makes it 6k, leaving himself 5600 behind. the blinds fold, original raiser folds, and JC tran then...puts the 3bettor squarely on QQ, and calls planning to either hit a set or bluff him off of QQ on the flop. the second caller folds, the flop comes ace high, and JC tran instantly open shoves. the old nit snapcalls and has AK and holds.

JC tran, without being asked, explains his thought process to the guy to his left (i'm 2 seats to JC's left). "man, i put him on queens and was just gonna bluff him on the flop"

nice job

JC made another just absolutely retarded analysis/play against cosmo in april also. he'll tell the story (i hope). JC literally does not understand the game at all. he's probably one of the stupidest players i've ever played with

On July 08 2008 19:06 mdom wrote: He could (should) def be raising like 99/TT/JJ (if he doesn't 3b those PF) here, like A8 too to $34 dunno about draws it dpeends on how often the fish donk/folds. and having the Ts does factor a lot here since the big draws gutter/FD are out of his range except J9s i do not mind a call here as you are in position and a cold call shows a lot of strenght so he will play his hand honestly on the turn in like every situation hopefully if you call and the fish comes along, ump is not good/tricky enough to like check 88 to you on the turn since it looks like you are going to bet the turn when checked to like always after you cold call the flop i think that overall this is very player dependent though but as a default i think calling is ok in this spot

If kissa had led for a decent size, should umpa be raising A8, 99-JJ? Why?

On July 08 2008 20:50 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2008 20:45 Baal wrote: lol why the JC Tran mention. in april i was playing a bellagio event 200/400+50, 10 handed. tight player raises utg to 1200, JC tran calls in MP with 66 (which is fine given the stack sizes), some other retard to JC's left calls also, and then some old nit who hasn't played a single hand in the 4 orbits he's been at our table makes it 6k, leaving himself 5600 behind. the blinds fold, original raiser folds, and JC tran then...puts the 3bettor squarely on QQ, and calls planning to either hit a set or bluff him off of QQ on the flop. the second caller folds, the flop comes ace high, and JC tran instantly open shoves. the old nit snapcalls and has AK and holds. JC tran, without being asked, explains his thought process to the guy to his left (i'm 2 seats to JC's left). "man, i put him on queens and was just gonna bluff him on the flop" nice job JC made another just absolutely retarded analysis/play against cosmo in april also. he'll tell the story (i hope). JC literally does not understand the game at all. he's probably one of the stupidest players i've ever played with

imao lol, edit: nvm i suck at reading

also i think the fact that umpa made it only $34 makes it more likely he's raising with some random air. something that i do and that i've seen some of the better regulars do at these stakes is vary their cbet/raise sizing against fish, so i think umpa would be more likely to make it bigger if he actually had something he wanted to get value from. ofc i could be completely wrong and umpa might just make it $34 regardless

On July 08 2008 22:42 Oly wrote: Show nested quote + On July 08 2008 19:06 mdom wrote: He could (should) def be raising like 99/TT/JJ (if he doesn't 3b those PF) here, like A8 too to $34 dunno about draws it dpeends on how often the fish donk/folds. and having the Ts does factor a lot here since the big draws gutter/FD are out of his range except J9s i do not mind a call here as you are in position and a cold call shows a lot of strenght so he will play his hand honestly on the turn in like every situation hopefully if you call and the fish comes along, ump is not good/tricky enough to like check 88 to you on the turn since it looks like you are going to bet the turn when checked to like always after you cold call the flop i think that overall this is very player dependent though but as a default i think calling is ok in this spot If kissa had led for a decent size, should umpa be raising A8, 99-JJ? Why?

Decent bet as in what size? If he lead pot, then it would depend 100% on his frequencies. In general when fish lead half pottish or something on these boards, it either means they have air, or some pair that they're trying to find out where they're at with, like 87 or 66 or something. If they lead pot it generally polarizes their range to draw/Qx hands, so as a default no umpa shouldn't raise A9-JJ if the donk leads big... but reads can change everything. againts some fish, umpa should fold everything to a fulll pot lead, against other fish he should raise 89 planning on value bombing any turn, etc.

Yea I guess a fold is best because I didn't really put umpa on a pure bluff either. Would be pretty terrible of him imo to run a pure bluff on a fish playing 61/15 knowing that he's going to get called in this spot fairly often by him. The only problem is that I don't really see too many betters Q's raising me in his range because I expect him to 3bet AQ and KQ because of the fish. QJ is a possibility as well as QT but basically I figured the rest of his range would consist of 88 or Ahigh flush draw + J9s with the FD's being very unlikely. I ended up just coldcalling the raise and the donkbettor folded. Turn brought the Js and umpa led for near pot. I almost shoved on him like a donkey with my straight flush draw + boat outs but luckily I found the fold button =)