50NL raise QQ UTG get 3 bet by tight player.

I am always confused by these situations, I dont want to fold preflop obviously but when a low card flop comes I always seem to get in trouble. Check calling seems like the way to go but if the villain keeps firing do i really want to stack off or let him hit a hand? check raising flop also doesn't really appeal as it just seems to fold out all his bad hands and i get stacked when I am beaten.

villain is 15/12/4.5 with 2.6 3 bet percentage over 635 hands(all datamined no history)

Cheers

Submitted by : Agent57

***** Hand History for Game 1060294498 *****
$50.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, July 07, 03:04:00 ET 2008
Table Klerksdorp (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: Hero ( $50.00 USD )
Seat 3: Snooken83 ( $88.51 USD )
Seat 5: opzt ( $53.35 USD )
Seat 6: lion12345 ( $15.07 USD )
Seat 8: HawHawHawHa ( $99.40 USD )
Seat 10: Toobby ( $53.95 USD )
HawHawHawHa posts small blind [$0.25 USD].
Toobby posts big blind [$0.50 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
Hero raises [$1.75 USD]
Snooken83 folds
opzt raises [$6.00 USD]
lion12345 folds
HawHawHawHa folds
Toobby folds
Hero calls [$4.25 USD]

Flop (Pot : $12.75)

   
Hero checks
opzt bets [$9.00 USD]
Hero calls [$9.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $30.75)

   
Hero checks
opzt checks

River (Pot : $30.75)

   
Hero checks
opzt bets [$18.00 USD]

if you play the hand, then check raise flop, it ain't getting better.

On July 07 2008 11:24 Royal_Rumble wrote: if you play the hand, then check raise flop, it ain't getting better.

This is an option but I don't think the flat c/c is bad as his 3bet range is so tight that he could easily be doing this with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK only (anyone know how 2.3% 3bet translates to possible hands - maybe I am out here?). (Clearly QQ v unlikely in this instance). So calling and reevaluating on turn is not a bad option IMO.

As you flatted it and he checks the turn I would get it in there - he can't have hit any draws, wouldn't check AA/KK and won't have 3bet with those stats with 99 or less so you are almost certainly ahead at that point. You only have $35 or so behind so any raise is a shove in to a $30 pot.

Once the K comes on the river it's a fold imo given his 3bet range - you gotta be thinking AK. His river bet certainly looks like it's for value so he thinks he has you beat.

I really have to say I hate your reasoning 4Kingell and I think as played he has to call this river most of villain's range that he would take this line with is AK.

As weakly this is played he has to call,esp if hes capable of vbetting thin TT,JJ here,and given his AF we should assume so.

You hate all my reasoning Cro)Deadman or just the part about folding as played? I am learning here and happy to be pointed in the right direction. This was my opinion and if it's bad I appreciate knowing why - I don't mind being wrong!

I take your point re. AF once we've reached the river but my reasoning was based more on the 3bet % range - but as I said I may be misreading what 2.6% translates to? (Edit - I don't have PT3)

On July 08 2008 08:33 4Kingell wrote: This is an option but I don't think the flat c/c is bad as his 3bet range is so tight that he could easily be doing this with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK only As you flatted it and he checks the turn I would get it in there - he can't have hit any draws, wouldn't check AA/KK and won't have 3bet with those stats with 99 or less so you are almost certainly ahead at that point.

So has JJ...rite, sick read....

Actually, if his preflop range is that nitty and cbets the flop 100% (which he should given how hero is a weak tight kitty apparently) we crush his range and should therefore try to get it in, and maybe float ONLY to 'trap' and get it in on turn, not to check it down, jesus...If we get action from AA/KK only in 3bet pots on that board then we should hang ourselves...

Check/raise flop mostly, and maybe try to do it with not only QQ+, maybe sometimes as a bluff,sometimes float with air or whatever.

50nl I think some vills are definitely capable of firing without AK on that river.

I think the problem with c/c flop -> check turn line, is that even if you fold vs his AA/KK, you lose all the money you "might have saved" by checking the turn (in value, from the weaker end of his range.....which you beat basically all of). If you think AA/KK is a large enough part of his range for you to profitably fold flop, then you fold. Don't call!

I stick it in on the flop, as played this is such a retarded spot. T_T You have to be right like 1/3 times, and like I said, it's definitely possible he's firing with JJ. I believe that is what Deadman was trying to say.

if we flatt his 3 bet pre
were looking to get it in on undercard flops ?

if not -> why dont we just fold pre ?
u may bet flop and than fold to a push .... allthough i dont like it that much

but check// call flop and then check//check turn is terrible imo

I think I am causing some confusion here:

1. I said does anyone know what 2.6% 3bet means in terms of range? Seems pretty small hence the range I mentioned - I don't have PT3 and not sure a simple 2.6% on Pokerstove is equivalent but that would be TT+ and AKs only.
2. When I said C/C would be ok - I meant check/call on the flop and get it in once checked to on the - aah major fuck up here - we are not in position - sorry complete screw up there. In position plays a bit differently - I see why I am getting abuse now......whoops.

OK - FAIL - will shut up.

Edit: I never suggested he check it down though Repusz - I was suggest getting it in on the turn BUT was getting my position wrong so agree flop makes more sense to check raise as you are not getting the info I thought in position.....

Can anyone clarify the 3bet range question?

I will c/r flop get it in..

you played that terribly , you cant check turn ...thats awful


you played 600 hands with this guy , you should have pretty good idea how he plays and does he likes to turn his hand into a bluff
you played that so passively and he could think JJ TT is good because you called pf with lower pairs or SC . Thats one reason why you should call
But this river bet looks loke "pls call me bet" and he will show there with AK alot. HOW is he valuebetting? some guys will make big bets on river when they are strong, and some will make "pls call me bets" alot of guys have betting patterns that you can spot if you're not just watching your HUD all the time...

On July 08 2008 17:19 4Kingell wrote: Can anyone clarify the 3bet range question?

Yes, I think it's TT-AK+, which is Completely standard. Note that:
Against that range, you have I think flip equity.
On that flop, you have much better than flip equity vs his range.
Given the way you both played the hand, I think esp on the turn, you're crushing him.
On the river he will show you AK a LOT, as the person above me said, but even if it's 3/4 times, your odds are close to breakeven.

I think the best course of action is to evaluate whether or not he's the kind of player who is capable of betting this river without AK (many aren't, but it's not super insanely rare), and call accordingly.

And no need to berate yourself, LP can usually take care of that for you.