NL50 Standard shove aggro

Don't have much info about villain (only been on the table for about 3 orbits) but he has been generally quite aggro and this is the secod time he 3bet me - the other when I open raised in cutoff (villain on button) which I folded to with a marginal hand.

Submitted by : 4Kingell

NL $0.25/$0.50 Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, June 24, 19:18:00 GMT 2008
Table Neon 82 6-max (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of active players : 5
Seat 1: YdidUdothat ( $50 )
Seat 2: JJJJJack ( $70.51 )
Seat 3: madmartigan ( $41.78 )
Seat 4: Hero ( $48 )
Seat 5: tiltmonster ( $67.95 )
Seat 6: SupraPower ( $52.55 )
tiltmonster posts small blind [$0.25]
SupraPower posts big blind [$0.50]

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
JJJJJack folds
madmartigan folds
Hero raises to [$1.75]
tiltmonster raises to [$5.50]
SupraPower folds
Hero calls [$3.75]

Flop (Pot : $4.50)

   
tiltmonster bets [$7]
Hero goes all-in
Hero raises to [$42.50]

looks fine. You could easily have the best hand or even be ahead here, depending on what his overbet on the flop means. Even if he has KK...which he shouldn't, you're better than a flip. Practically a valueshove.

If you ran into quads or a set of 4s, well, ewwwww. Note that his overbets can be for value.

its not an overbet, pot size is incorrect. villain bets 7 into 11.25.

the shove is fine i guess, you can call and bet/raise allin the turn too

when you call 3bets with this hand you just have to shove it on these flops IMO

Thanks guys - glad you agree it's ok.

My question was more is this the right move (with the admittedly limited info I gave) in that position - result wasn't really relevant but I know people like to know. So for the record he showed up with QJs so it was the right move for this guy - unfortunately he spiked a J on turn and no spades but fairly irrelevent to the question.

You're in position but like you said if you miss on the turn you probably have to make a weak fold.

If you mean the pf call, I guess one could argue for 4bet-folding? The range he overshoves with is probably a lot tighter and you can fold. If he still doesn't believe you and flats...probably only get it in on a combo draw like you had. Ax is tricky because you're outkicked so much. >_< I ran into the same spot last night where I tried a button steal, blind didn't give me any respect and 3bet me. I flat with A5s. Spike an ace and proceed to give him no respect by "running into" A4o.

Your equity against a weird "All Ax, 66+, Broadway-T+" is basically a flip.


Any more experienced regs out there that could help deal with wider ranges in steal situations?

what is your plan on a Axx board, or a board where you hit your 5, eg. T53r, K52hh etc...? or a random miss board where you have a gutshot like 23Jr with one spade or 24Kr

defending this hand based off the read "no reads, he seems aggresive and this is the 2nd time he 3-bet me" does not warrant playing a hand like this, it's very easy for a aggresive player to 3-bet 99+/ATo+/KJ+ especially against late position stealers - his preceived aggresive range can easily crush yours and playing this hand is not going to be profitable (more along the lines of stubborn / tilted) unless situations like this are trivial, there's no reason for you to get into this spot.

This is a gin flop for your hand, you will almost never flop better than this with A5s. theres nothing to discuss about the flop play of this hand

Tom - are you basically saying this is fold or 4bet/fold to shove (as Semper is saying)? Or are you saying just fold and wait until I have more info and a decent read to bother even getting involved?

I agree no point in calling (defending) - was bad.

Thanks guys - I'm learning.

since it's only the second time he 3-bets you (even in a short sample of time) a fold is probably the best.

it's not horrible to 4-bet and show early on you are not gonna be pushed around; but if he is a tighter player and just had a rush of cards, it could be pretty spewy.

so fold > 4-bet > call where calling is absolute horrible without better history

On June 27 2008 03:43 4Kingell wrote: Tom - are you basically saying this is fold or 4bet/fold to shove (as Semper is saying)? Or are you saying just fold and wait until I have more info and a decent read to bother even getting involved? I agree no point in calling (defending) - was bad. Thanks guys - I'm learning.

Not saying you should 4-bet, I'm saying the point of poker is to make a PROFIT* your hand is gonna flop top pair 17% of the time, flush draw 10% of the time, what is your plan the other 73% when you flop close to nothing? are you just gonna fold every time? if your going to constantly call hjis 3-bets and fold when you miss your gonna fold 3 of 4 times postflop so you lose $5.5 *(3) $16.5 before you actually flop an OK hand eg. Axx or a flush draw, now when you flop a naked top pair do you intend on playing a big pot with it? Because in the long run your already down a lot from all the missed flops so you need to be able to extract some VB's from him - and since you know absolutley nothing about him and his tendancies + he can easily be 3-betting hands like A9s+, ATo+ all of which have you beat (this is a generally aggresive 3-bet range) - your ability to show profit in this spot will be preety non existant

Try and look for a mistake he's making and exploit it, him 3-betting you a 2nd time in 3 orbits is not a mistake, there's nothing wrong with coming after button stealers from the blinds. This hand you claimed he has JQs, meaning you can now comfortably call with hands like AJ, KQ because you will have some of his hands dominated and can now play for stacks on Jxx , Qxx, Kxx boards profitably, whereas a hand like A5s has much less going for it.

Play solid smart poker, try and develop a read via his interaction with other players or wait for a more solid hand, A5s is preety splashy - no need for you find out how he plays with your own wallet

Ok - I understand and very much appreciate your time to respond.

I should say I didn't just do this because he 3bet me twice - he had been pretty aggro generally (whether I was involved or not). But I see that not only was this the wrong spot (hand and timing/lack of info) to defend but that I chose the worst way to do it!!

I am trying to move my game from a TAG FR (ready closer to nitty than tight) and reasonably succesful MTT (low level) to 6-max cash, a bit looser but more aggressive and, although I am not losing cash I am definitely picking the wrong spots that are costing me money. It's certainly a shit load more exciting that FR nitville but I obviously want this to profitable, not just to relieve the boredom. I moved down to NL50 to ensure the big mistakes (lessons!) haven''t been costing too much. I'm learning - and as said I do appreciate the feedback.

Just so you know - it wasn't just a claim re his JQs and I'm not completely FOS!:
+ Show Spoiler +

I think tom says a lot about what do here when you get frustrated b/c you feel someone is 3betting you light