1kNL: KJs flush vs Leatherass9

Submitted by : JDK87

Seat 1: Fiude $1251 in chips
Seat 2: Leatherass9 $2041 in chips
Seat 3: PoorUser $1163 in chips
Seat 4: Hero $2338 in chips
Seat 5: muldert37 $1719 in chips
Seat 6: Pacuno $985 in chips
muldert37: posts small blind $5
Pacuno: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero
Fiude: folds
Leatherass9: raises $20 to $30
PoorUser: calls $30
Hero : calls $30
muldert37: folds
Pacuno: folds
*** FLOP ***
Leatherass9: bets $100
PoorUser: calls $100
Hero : calls $100
*** TURN ***
Leatherass9: checks
PoorUser: checks
Hero : checks
*** RIVER ***
Leatherass9: checks
PoorUser: checks
Hero : bets $290
Leatherass9: raises $760 to $1050
PoorUser: folds
Hero :

Hehe isnt this the second hand posted in highstakes where someone wants to fold a rivered flush to Leatherass.. Last time it was McNasty Jamie217 I think?

http://www.liquidpoker.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=279485
Not identical but hero holds KJsuited in both hands :D

what?????? how is this a puke call??????

I dont see how this is anything but a jam, he is never folding a backdoor flush here.

Which backdoor flush could he have hit apart from 89cc? I don't know that much about Leatherass his game, but cbetting SGC's on this flop vs PU + a 200bb deep stack on this flop is pretty much like suicide imo or at least a terrible spot to cbet+giveup... So we have 89cc and practically every AcXc combo with Ac8c as most likely (though I don't see him cbetting AcXc's 100% for the same reason as cbetting SGC's would be crap), how is this ever an easy jam? Can't see him calling w/89cc vs a shove here, what on earth would he put us on pushing in another 100bb's? 34cc?

Calling would be "standard" here, but a shove is horrible imo. Only way I would shove here is either while having the nuts (duh) or the lone Ac because he can't possibly call with anything apart from the nuts on our shove and we would block it.

WHAT?

On June 17 2008 08:30 JDK87 wrote: Which backdoor flush could he have hit apart from 89cc? I don't know that much about Leatherass his game, but cbetting SGC's on this flop vs PU + a 200bb deep stack on this flop is pretty much like suicide imo or at least a terrible spot to cbet+giveup... So we have 89cc and practically every AcXc combo with Ac8c as most likely, how is this ever an easy jam? Can't see him calling w/89cc vs a shove here, what on earth would he put us on pushing in another 100bb's? 34cc? Calling would be "standard" here, but a shove is horrible imo. Only way I would shove here is either while having the nuts (duh) or the lone Ac because he can't possibly call with anything apart from the nuts on our shove and we would block it.

where to start....

umm he could easily have J9cc 89cc amongst a few others. the fact that u think soooo negatively here makes me suggest he possibly views u as a weak player. And also i dont see many AXcc hands not double barreling and checking on the turn, the most likely one i see would probably with AJcc hoping for a c/r but i dont see many other AXcc types checking turn. On the river ur hand is sooo insanely underepped that a good thinking player could easily c/r with AcX just because Pooruser and u both look SUPER weak....


and calling is definitely NOT "standard" here, and shoving is definitely not horrible. If there is ever a spot u only shove with nuts, thats a spot where u can be exploited.

" or the lone Ac because he can't possibly call with anything apart from the nuts on our shove"

and why do u think he cant do this to you with lone Ac??????

First of all, I'm not Hero. So that read is not possible. Hero asked me on MSN for my advice, I actually said to him this was an easy call.

Though after looking things over, it seems hard to put him on anything but AcXc (or indeed AcXx for a nice bluff, which I also stated in my OP for a possible reason to call) and maybe 89cc. But wouldn't he just betout 89cc on the river because he can't expect a B/C from either PU or Hero since they both checked the turn and they would most likely have bet a made hand there? At least a reasonable % of the time I think he would just betout the river with 89cc.

Secondly, we have the Jc so your statement "he could easily have J9cc 89cc among a few other" is kinda breaking down to my "So we have 89cc and practically every AcXc combo with Ac8c as most likely" and him having AJcc is also impossible. Unless you think he's betting 68cc/58cc/59cc on the flop, which I think is to be a mistake against PU and a 200bb deep active stack and since we look at Leatherass being a (very) capable highstakes player, I doubt he would bet these hands on the flop a large % of the time.

On the other hand, I also stated to Hero in my conversation with him that I doubt Leatherass would check AcXc on the turn a lot, unless he already had some showdown value (which is again leading us to Ac8c).

Honestly, I have no idea why you would post this hand to begin with.
This is a very easy call and any discussion regarding other alternatives is the incorrect play.

On June 17 2008 09:55 JDK87 wrote: First of all, I'm not Hero. So that read is not possible. Hero asked me on MSN for my advice, I actually said to him this was an easy call. Though after looking things over, it seems hard to put him on anything but AcXc (or indeed AcXx for a nice bluff, which I also stated in my OP for a possible reason to call) and maybe 89cc. But wouldn't he just betout 89cc on the river because he can't expect a B/C from either PU or Hero since they both checked the turn and they would most likely have bet a made hand there? At least a reasonable % of the time I think he would just betout the river with 89cc. Secondly, we have the Jc so your statement "he could easily have J9cc 89cc among a few other" is kinda breaking down to my "So we have 89cc and practically every AcXc combo with Ac8c as most likely" and him having AJcc is also impossible. Unless you think he's betting 68cc/58cc/59cc on the flop, which I think is to be a mistake against PU and a 200bb deep active stack and since we look at Leatherass being a (very) capable highstakes player, I doubt he would bet these hands on the flop a large % of the time. On the other hand, I also stated to Hero in my conversation with him that I doubt Leatherass would check AcXc on the turn a lot, unless he already had some showdown value (which is again leading us to Ac8c).

my bad about the J9cc. and AJcc its like 3am here

but yea jam jam still remains my play.

86cc and 89cc are 2 combos to 1 against A8cc (if thats the only AXcc u think he has) so still jam, no one ever folds back doors.

plus i still think he double barrels AXcc alot.

but yea NEVER fold, and i still jam.

lol really? i always thought mreki88 was good this post is retarded though. didn't convert SN on the turn i guess.

On June 17 2008 10:03 casinocasino wrote: Honestly, I have no idea why you would post this hand to begin with. This is a very easy call and any discussion regarding other alternatives is the incorrect play.

Do you really think Leatherass is bluffing or valueraising worse >50% of the time? I can't see why this is such an easy read, given the lines during the hand. Please explain why it is so easy.

Few short pointers. I dont think Leatherass is gonna checkraise small flushes, I think his range is nutflush alot. So I think we can just call, because of his solid checkraise on river. As well if he would checkraise river with 89cc here, I think his will fold it most of the time to a shove.

I think checking turn is best here too.. You dont want to get jammed on, and you dont get called by alot worse on turn, I can see AK checkfolding by Leatherass for example.

does he really lead pot on flop here with Ac8c ? lol

On June 17 2008 12:32 Fayth wrote: does he really lead pot on flop here with Ac8c ? lol

yeah with Qc and Tc out it's almost impossible for us to be beat here

But what people seem to not grasp is. No capable/smart player would really checkraise a small flush here, its a pretty weak play vs 2 decent regs, with turn action. You dont want to open up yourself to face a decision where you need to play a 4 buy in pot with 3rd/4th nuts, where most of the money goes in on river.

Why would Leatherass expect to get it in good for 2 buy ins on the river with very little action before, wobbly_au for example, you dont give him much credit. Its not really too much about the fact that it is hard to see him with AcXc here, its more about the fact, there is very few/none hand he would play for value this way that is worse than your hand, it doesnt make much sense. By shoving here, we are gonna see him fold whatever he has or call with the nuts. There are some situations where villain is tilting, where it becomes a little bit of another discussion, but if he is playing solid, no way we are pushing river here.

I dont agree with that Leatherass is gonna 2barrel AcXc always here either, I wouldn´t with 2 people in the pot and the chance getting shut out of it.

call, to make it sweeter you dont even have to reload if you muck

it is gay that hes never bluffing though

Can anyone explain why it would be good to check that turn?

Why can't Dusty have AcKx with the line he took?

Nevermind checking turn I just read teh part about hand being underrepped and hero is not who posted.