NL 100 facing 5b shove from reg

Submitted by : chipsOwner

PokerStars Game #17402358131: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/05/13 - 13:30:58 (ET)
Table 'Siwa IV' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: asturiano ($109.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Kutila ($134.95 in chips)
Seat 3: Folder007 ($98.30 in chips)
Seat 4: beethreekay ($191.95 in chips)
Seat 5: chipsOwner ($122.10 in chips)
Seat 6: PRO_rANDY ($261 in chips)
beethreekay: posts small blind $0.50
chipsOwner : posts big blind $1

Holecards
Dealt to chipsOwner
PRO_rANDY: folds
asturiano: folds
Kutila: raises $3 to $4
Folder007: folds
beethreekay: raises $8 to $12
chipsOwner : raises $16 to $28
Kutila: folds
beethreekay: raises $163.95 to $191.95 and is all-in

your deep enough this is probably foldable.
I haven't played NL100 in a while but iirc its very nitty and for 130BB this is a good fold.

he runs at 20/18/9

beerthekay is an lper(isnt?) tell us your hand

Gotta be deeper than this to fold AK after a 4bet.

When you 4bet here, you should really be instafolding or instacalling, otherwise why waste AKs? So instacall.

if you can see him having a fairly wide range here doesnt that make this the quickest call ever?

snapcall

i mean you consider him having a wide range. if that's what you think then AK > his range...

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

87,327,504 games 0.016 secs 5,457,969,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.152% 42.62% 08.53% 37221066 7448730.00 { AcKc }
Hand 1: 48.848% 40.32% 08.53% 35208978 7448730.00 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

are you 4-betting cause you think you have the best hand or as a "play" hoping to win money from pure fold equity?

This depends so much on your history

i dont think you should fold after the 4b though

Against player so aggressive, I fistpump call this and win against AKo or QQ/JJ.

One thing that affects this decision is the initial raiser btw. If he's a huge fish, the LP.netter can easily be isolating him with a reraise, which makes this a good spot to 4-bet bluff also, or reraise a wider range for value (which ever you think suits best for the dynamic).

If he's half-decent, or knows you (I've noticed that when ever I'm playing against someone who knows me, I get 0 respect for my hands => valuetown), he'll realize that you can be just restealing and repush over the top with wider range. You'll be flipping a lot, but I think it's still worth it, even though you asking it probably means that you got screwed by AA/KK.

snapcall

crazy kids

On May 13 2008 17:28 Muhweli wrote: Against player so aggressive, I fistpump call this and win against AKo or QQ/JJ. One thing that affects this decision is the initial raiser btw. If he's a huge fish, the LP.netter can easily be isolating him with a reraise, which makes this a good spot to 4-bet bluff also, or reraise a wider range for value (which ever you think suits best for the dynamic). If he's half-decent, or knows you (I've noticed that when ever I'm playing against someone who knows me, I get 0 respect for my hands => valuetown), he'll realize that you can be just restealing and repush over the top with wider range. You'll be flipping a lot, but I think it's still worth it, even though you asking it probably means that you got screwed by AA/KK.

that was my exact chain of thoughts. the guy was raising some hand that might call a 3bet in some cases but definitely not a 4bet so he was not my concern. b3k is pretty aggro so i would regard him 3betting this a ton so i raised as tom asked for value and i was snapcalling a shove obv which is what happened. he showed up with AA and then i thought that his raise to only 12x is pretty small which didnt occur to me before the 4bet.

so another question: did you notice that people who only reraise a max of 3x the amount of V's raise (e.g. from 4x to 12x), rather that adding extra bbs for being OOP which would make it a more standard 13-15x rr from the blinds, tend to have stronger hands than when making it like 13-15x?

in contrast to this, some donks minrr only QQ+ from any pos but these can be kinda easy to spot once you've seen a showdown they r fckd. then a group of donks minrr any pp like 88+ and also aq+ and then play idiotic on flops so its pretty ez as well.

anyway back to the original question. how about exploiting those who 3b less w KK/AA?

???

either your call is awful or your 4bet is awful (otherwise completely standard fistpump call), take your pick

yea don't 4bet if you're not calling it off otherwise you're effectively just bluffing. it's not like he's gonna flat with AQ or something worse

im having trouble understanding everyone who says instacall.... even a loose 5bet ai range here from a solid player is qq+,ak. against that range AKs is 41.9% in my experience this deep ai pf from solid player means aa/kk--> obvious fold. the 4bet to $28 is good because AKs is +ev vs villains likely 3bet range, plus fold equity vs coin flips. probably about even money with 4bet calling range (99-qq, ak). i think it is played perfectly if folded here, as long as villain is not exploiting us with loose 150bb shoves pf, which i have not seen too much of at nl100.

against a 35% vpip i agree instacall but not vs 20% player

On May 14 2008 11:30 jkeller wrote: im having trouble understanding everyone who says instacall.... even a loose 5bet ai range here from a solid player is qq+,ak. against that range AKs is 41.9% in my experience this deep ai pf from solid player means aa/kk--> obvious fold. the 4bet to $28 is good because AKs is +ev vs villains likely 3bet range, plus fold equity vs coin flips. probably about even money with 4bet calling range (99-qq, ak). i think it is played perfectly if folded here, as long as villain is not exploiting us with loose 150bb shoves pf, which i have not seen too much of at nl100. against a 35% vpip i agree instacall but not vs 20% player

You realize it's $94 to call and there's $60 of dead money in the pot

On May 14 2008 11:30 jkeller wrote: im having trouble understanding everyone who says instacall.... even a loose 5bet ai range here from a solid player is qq+,ak. against that range AKs is 41.9% in my experience this deep ai pf from solid player means aa/kk--> obvious fold. the 4bet to $28 is good because AKs is +ev vs villains likely 3bet range, plus fold equity vs coin flips. probably about even money with 4bet calling range (99-qq, ak). i think it is played perfectly if folded here, as long as villain is not exploiting us with loose 150bb shoves pf, which i have not seen too much of at nl100. against a 35% vpip i agree instacall but not vs 20% player

Theres a couple of potential flaws in your reasoning.

the 4bet to $28 is good because AKs is +ev vs villains likely 3bet range, plus fold equity vs coin flips

it doesnt make sense to compare AKs to the 3betting range, but rather to their 4bet calling range or more likely their 5bet pushing range, as this is when the money actually goes in, and the strength of our hand actually matters.

even a loose 5bet ai range here from a solid player is qq+,ak. against that range AKs is 41.9%

not saying this range is necessarily correct, but with money already in the pot 41.9% is enough equity to call here.

probably about even money with 4bet calling range (99-qq, ak)

generally people don't flat 4bets, and if they do I'd say it can be equally with AA, KK as the range you described. If they feel you're 4betting light, they're more likely to flat with AA, KK, and to push with 99-QQ, AK. so that depends on game dynamic.

The biggest thing is that if you 4bet/fold AKs here, you are only getting value when people flat your 4bet, which means you have to hit a favorable flop, etc. This isnt good. If AK cant be 4bet for value (ie calling a 5bet) then you're practically turning it into a bluff, except in the instance that they flat and u hit a good flop (again unlikely, and not really profitable). From that perspective, I'd just as soon turn 67s into a bluff like that as AKs, and then gain additional value by flatting the 3bet with AK instead. however AK plays very well to balance your 4bet calling range. So vs agressive opponents you should be 4bet bluffing and folding to 5bet allins with weaker hands, and then balancing by 4bet-calling with AK.

if hes all in then the deception aspect no longer matters. so at this point it is only a matter of whether u win money on avg vs his deep stack 5bet ai range.

according to my calculations here are range/equity breakdowns

ako,aks,qq+ +11
aks,qq+ 0
qq+ -8
kk+ -38

i happen to think he has kk+ based on the limited info i have, so thats why i think fold. but it is all based on what you think his range is obviously. maybe you guys have more info on his range than i do.

if these 4 ranges are equally likely then you lose $8.50 on avg by calling. if his range is the top one or looser then obvious call.