400 NL vs LPer

if that's your analysis then i don't think you are giving NEARLY enough consideration to the fact that your 3bet preflop with AQ is implicitly HORRENDOUS if you can't get any value on a flop like this

as far as i see it, these two things cannot both simultaneously be true:

a. preflop 3bet is fine, even if it's not great
b. can't get value on this flop

either (a) or (b) is wrong. if you're this confident in your postflop analysis, then i think your preflop 3bet has to be a really big spew, and should be the most important point of this thread

On May 12 2008 01:59 Loco wrote: also not giving enough credit to soliduser if you think he is calling with Kxs/weaker ace here(and PF)

also, i don't think that i'm "not giving him enough credit" by making those assumptions. good players make thin value calls against aggressive players all the time. it's not necessarily great or terrible for him to have a super-tight range for looking you up in this situation. so i certainly don't think i'm calling him a poor player by assuming he can look you up light

Eh, 3betting expecting that the solid player folds and you get it in with the fishcake is a reasonable play. I imagine if the fish had folded preflop then he wouldn't have 3bet AQ. If that's the case then checking the flop is reasonable as well.

You really need to consider how often the original raiser folds to determine how good the 3bet is. The quality of the play goes up the more often he folds, for obvious reasons.

I think you're forgetting to look at the intent of the 3bet myth, and that was to isolate the fish.

^ correct.

so are we suggesting c/c? What's the plan here

well that's what I did but I don't think it's good at all. although it enables me to do a good fold on the turn if he bets again. maybe I can make that fold on the flop and that's what I was questioning before making this thread. It just seemed impossible and unthinkable to me to check fold this flop on the spot, but what am I hoping for by check/calling here? we have already established that he is not betting the flop as a bluff or with a worse hand, ever.

if weaker aces are never in his range then you should never try to get big value from this hand. if you check and he bets you have an incredibly easy fold based on everything you have said. i would bet enough to get the shorty in and fold to resistance from the big stack. if he calls and turn goes check check maybe make another very small river bet that he can't fold to for giggles.

and loco why are you being so hostile, good players are trying to help you, you should be thanking them.

Loco, are u still advocating C/C or C/F over B/F? I don't get it. What kind of range are you putting him on for just calling your 3bet? AK/KK/AA only?. If you think he will just call you with AK, then I don't see any reason to believe why he wouldn't be just calling with JJ or QQ. If his range is AK/JJ+, then you're right he's only going to be betting the hands that beat you and checking the ones that you beat. Then theoretically, you should be able to just check/fold if that is his range. But given the fact that you're in the heat of the moment and you 3bet AQ and hit your hand I would think you're more inclined to C/C than C/F which is exactly what you did. Therefore, it would be better to B/F than C/C since it's going to save you money if you're never folding the flop to a bet, and even a small bet is going to fold out his weaker holdings.

It seems to me like what you're trying to imply in your posts is that C/F should be your only option. How much history do you have with the villain, and do you know his tendencies for calling a 3bet? From your posts, it looks like you don't have a whole lot of info about either so I don't think you can ever advocate C/F after 3betting AQ and getting an AKx board because that just seems wayyyyy too exploitable.

On May 12 2008 12:19 Grass.nS) wrote: I don't think you can ever advocate C/F after 3betting AQ and getting an AKx board because that just seems wayyyyy too exploitable.

ya agreed, lets hope villain never reads these forums.

On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible

keepin' it simple

On May 12 2008 13:34 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible keepin' it simple

agreed... this is being way overanalyzed for a 111bb nl400 hand in a 3bet squeezed pot no less...

On May 12 2008 10:02 Yugless wrote: if weaker aces are never in his range then you should never try to get big value from this hand. if you check and he bets you have an incredibly easy fold based on everything you have said. i would bet enough to get the shorty in and fold to resistance from the big stack. if he calls and turn goes check check maybe make another very small river bet that he can't fold to for giggles. and loco why are you being so hostile, good players are trying to help you, you should be thanking them.

I am hostile? the only post that was hostile was towarded to Vic3Roy who didn't contribute anything to the thread and who isn't a good player. Or am I hostile because I disagree with better players?

On May 12 2008 15:26 CirCa wrote: Show nested quote + On May 12 2008 13:34 TalentedTom wrote:   On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible keepin' it simple agreed... this is being way overanalyzed for a 111bb nl400 hand in a 3bet squeezed pot no less...

yea it's just one buy in let's spew it without thinking

On May 12 2008 16:14 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On May 12 2008 15:26 CirCa wrote:   On May 12 2008 13:34 TalentedTom wrote:   On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible keepin' it simple agreed... this is being way overanalyzed for a 111bb nl400 hand in a 3bet squeezed pot no less... yea it's just one buy in let's spew it without thinking

lmao and you ask how you are being hostile?

for a simple hand it is being overanalyzed

On May 12 2008 16:14 Loco wrote: Show nested quote + On May 12 2008 15:26 CirCa wrote:   On May 12 2008 13:34 TalentedTom wrote:   On May 11 2008 12:50 RaSZi wrote: get it in as fast as possible keepin' it simple agreed... this is being way overanalyzed for a 111bb nl400 hand in a 3bet squeezed pot no less... yea it's just one buy in let's spew it without thinking

spew? ok buddy... why do i get the feeling you are being completely results oriented?

don't get all mad because people aren't agreeing with you...

why do i get the feeling that everything I have said to explain my thought process and my read on the player has just been totally ignored by some of you guys?

yes its a spew. and im not the only one thinking it is. even twisted/freak agreed with me. Sorry for disagreeing, I should just be bandwagonning, my bad for making things so difficult.

i think this really depends on your image. If your really nitty enought that hes always folding AQ/KQ/AJ then bet once and be done.

IF your regularly bringing the pain then get it in.

On May 12 2008 17:53 Loco wrote: why do i get the feeling that everything I have said to explain my thought process and my read on the player has just been totally ignored by some of you guys? yes its a spew. and im not the only one thinking it is. even twisted/freak agreed with me. Sorry for disagreeing, I should just be bandwagonning, my bad for making things so difficult.

only twisted said he thought it was a spew.. freak simply said he didn't think checking the flop was bad and i think he was primarily replying to myths post

btw... if you know it is spew vs this specific player why did you even post this hand? and why didn't you c/f the flop?

On May 12 2008 17:53 Loco wrote: why do i get the feeling that everything I have said to explain my thought process and my read on the player has just been totally ignored by some of you guys? yes its a spew. and im not the only one thinking it is. even twisted/freak agreed with me. Sorry for disagreeing, I should just be bandwagonning, my bad for making things so difficult.

Did you read my last post? If you disagree with it, tell me how my reasoning is flawed.

sorry grass i wasnt replying to you in that post but to circa. I'll reply to your post soon.

circa; freak told me on msn "for what it's worth I think you are right"

But yes you are totally right I shouldn'tve made this thread in the first place, my bad. I made it right after the hand was played and didnt have enough time to think about it, but its a clear check fold after giving it some thought.

sorry everyone