400 NL vs LPer

Villain is a very solid LPer, one of the best regs imo.He doesn't make much moves but has a very active image. Same as me. We both play 22/18/4 fwiw.

I wonder what lines you guys take in this hand and why.


Submitted by : Loco

***** Hand History for Game 7046742315 *****
$400 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, May 10, 23:49:54 ET 2008
Table Table 126838 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 3: spike432 ( $387.48 USD )
Seat 6: rifleman102 ( $89.36 USD )
Seat 2: Hero ( $445 USD )
Seat 4: KrucheVseh ( $551 USD )
Seat 5: sidibe ( $550 USD )
Seat 1: ahmet1601 ( $416.30 USD )
ahmet1601 posts small blind [$2 USD].
Hero posts big blind [$4 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
spike432 folds .
KrucheVseh raises [$15 USD]
sidibe folds .
rifleman102 calls [$15 USD]
ahmet1601 folds .
Hero raises [$62 USD]
KrucheVseh calls [$51 USD]
rifleman102 calls [$51 USD]

Flop (Pot : $200.00)

   
Hero

i put out a bet and give up to resistance
what are you beating here? he's never calling with AJ

I think the only way this hand can be played is straightforward given the potsize and stacksizes, but it's really strange that he elects to just flat call with the short stack behind. Prob just bet/call, maybe bet something like 90-100 since your hand is going to be so transparent. I think you can find reason to fold if he shoves but I'm too much of a donk to fold here.

dont think hes flatting AK often against a potential squeeze, bet flop shove turn is the standard w/ the occasional check shove*

which LP'er is it Loco?

don't remember his LP name. not important anyways.

On May 10 2008 22:02 TalentedTom wrote: dont think hes flatting AK often against a potential squeeze, bet flop shove turn is the standard w/ the occasional check shove*

I think he is, the only reason why I think so is because I'm never squeezing there with the shortstacked calling station retard in the hand. I also think he would never call with AJ there. That means that betting flop and shoving turn is pure spew. I guess I should've mentioned that in the OP

why do you 3bet this if you are not willing to go broke on this kind of flop?
listen to tom, he never gives bad advice

On May 11 2008 00:40 brudman wrote: why do you 3bet this if you are not willing to go broke on this kind of flop? listen to tom, he never gives bad advice

because he opens tons of hands obviously. does that mean that he calls 3bets light? or stacks off easily? no. also because I would like to isolate the shortstack and get it in with him (which I will most of the time) also because it puts him in a gay spot because he knows i'm not squeezing there with the shortstack in the hand, so I think he folds AQ/mid pocket pairs to me pf. Anyway i'm not saying 3betting was the best play pre flop, I kind of like a call too but those are the reasons I did it.

edit: lol yea because tom is perfect.

Here's what I think;

I think betting the flop isn't optimal. I think if I check and he bets or checks his range is very polarized and I can play the turn and river optimally.If he bets the flop I think it's a very good hand every time since I wouldn't see him bluffing with shortstack in the hand, if he checks I think I have the best hand most of the time, unless hes slowplaying KK or possibly AA.

If I bet the flop i'm folding out the hands I crush and I'm getting valuetowned by hands that crush me.

Is my logic flawed? I'd really like to know why are we so optimistic about sticking all the money in here.

With that stacksizes you're gonna be all in either way. And I think at this stakes 3b is used enough to see ppl calling with AJs or KQs in position, specially a guy like this. I like a $130 bet. There's no reason to check TPTK with the ace in the flop or you're gonna give free cards to smaller pairs. Think that your villian TAG is not gonna bluff with the shortie fish in the pot imo. Just bet and risk it all

Ok, I know you're getting action most of the time by best hands, but you have to protect your pot. If you think villian is gonna be str8forward enough, then only bet the remaining cash the shortie has and go into check mode turn and river

On May 11 2008 01:42 Loco wrote: Here's what I think; I think betting the flop isn't optimal. I think if I check and he bets or checks his range is very polarized and I can play the turn and river optimally.If he bets the flop I think it's a very good hand every time since I wouldn't see him bluffing with shortstack in the hand, if he checks I think I have the best hand most of the time, unless hes slowplaying KK or possibly AA. If I bet the flop i'm folding out the hands I crush and I'm getting valuetowned by hands that crush me. Is my logic flawed? I'd really like to know why are we so optimistic about sticking all the money in here.

by your logic you should just bet the flop and then be done with the hand. check-check-check is a really bad result, a free card to 2 people in position who are only going to gain value from that card. just because your full-stacked opponent won't pay you off doesn't mean you shouldn't bet. yes, your bet loses some money when he has you beaten, which is very rare. but it gains a lot of money from the shortstack and protects your hand from a little bit of trouble. plus, for balance's sake, you should just bet and confidently give up facing resistance in a spot like this, when playing with somebody who is a good regular in your games.

I like check because the shortstack is gonna shove 99% of the time with any holding trying to bluff you guys. Then if you just call his shove and the reg is coming over the top or calling you're done with the hand with the least amount lost postflop. He's not raising with a guaranteed showdown against the shorty with a worse hand than AQ. If he's flatcalling I'm checking it down giving up to resistance.

I think betting is spew.

On May 11 2008 02:04 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On May 11 2008 01:42 Loco wrote: Here's what I think; I think betting the flop isn't optimal. I think if I check and he bets or checks his range is very polarized and I can play the turn and river optimally.If he bets the flop I think it's a very good hand every time since I wouldn't see him bluffing with shortstack in the hand, if he checks I think I have the best hand most of the time, unless hes slowplaying KK or possibly AA. If I bet the flop i'm folding out the hands I crush and I'm getting valuetowned by hands that crush me. Is my logic flawed? I'd really like to know why are we so optimistic about sticking all the money in here. by your logic you should just bet the flop and then be done with the hand. check-check-check is a really bad result, a free card to 2 people in position who are only going to gain value from that card. just because your full-stacked opponent won't pay you off doesn't mean you shouldn't bet. yes, your bet loses some money when he has you beaten, which is very rare. but it gains a lot of money from the shortstack and protects your hand from a little bit of trouble. plus, for balance's sake, you should just bet and confidently give up facing resistance in a spot like this, when playing with somebody who is a good regular in your games.

No, by my logic betting the flop is atrocious. The shortstack has $25 left, I don't care about him. I care about what Kruche will do though, I know he's not going to try and bluff me out of the hand obviously, so when I think about the range of hands he has that bet this flop and that I beat, it's slim to none. So then on the turn by checking the flop, I'd feel confident and fire to protect my hand and put the shorty all-in (in case he didn't shove the flop) I doubt giving one free card is worse than betting this flop.

edit: glad to see Twisted is having a similar opinion, i'd like to get some more opinions though

blah blah blah top pair in 3b pot get it all in.

To OP: By ur logic u shouldnt 3-bet AQo preflop (unless it is meant as a pure bluff).

For me, if I hit TP with AQ in 3-bet pot and it is not more than 100bb deep and the flop is not sick awfull, I am quite happy to get it allin.

And btw him not ever calling u down with worse can mean that
a) he is very tight preflop and then u should exploit it buy often bluffing the same way
b) you never ever bluff there so that he can make an easy fold, in which case u either should bluff there at least some times or not 3-bet him there with AQ like ever

Just some quick thoughts while playing dota...

Joe;
Like I said I don't think 3betting pre flop is necessarily the best play but I did, and I said the reasons why I did it. Tell me why my reasons aren't valid instead of just telling me some random generic reply "if you do this it means you have to do that".

And like I said he's very active so no he isn't very tight pre flop, as to calling reraises yes he might be, even more if there's a shortstack behind and this is why I decided to reraise. It doesn't mean that I never ever bluff here, it's just that he's never seen me do it before, therefore he's going to give me credit for reraising out of the blinds vs his EP raise and the shortstacker that will most likely call/reraise all in. I'm not turning my hand into a bluff, but i'm definitely not confident about it if Kruche calls,which kind of defies the logic of 3beting in the first place but i'm playing solely the situation and think he folds a lot pre flop, hadn't 3bet him in a little while too so it's always good.

I feel that Loco's ideas has some merit but if someone never gets it in with worse here (even including the shortstack, which should make him tighten up a bit) he's really exploitable. I don't think a good solid LPer would put you in situations where TPGK should be considered a very marginal holding in a 3-bet pot very often.