Top trip top kicker weird line

Submitted by : Joe

PokerStars Game #17239168885: Hold'em No Limit ($5/$10) - 2008/05/06 - 08:44:25 (ET)
Table 'Philia' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Zelijostocko ($1370.50 in chips)
Seat 2: domperignom ($275.85 in chips)
Seat 3: *Jam-ITIN* ($1211.75 in chips)
Seat 4: Flupkees ($953 in chips)
Seat 5: flaviano ($1777 in chips)
Seat 6: Joeik ($1015 in chips)
flaviano: posts small blind $5
Joeik : posts big blind $10

Holecards
Dealt to Joeik
Zelijostocko: raises $30 to $40
domperignom: folds
*Jam-ITIN*: folds
Flupkees: folds
flaviano: folds
Joeik : calls $30

Flop (Pot : $85.00)

   
Joeik : checks
Zelijostocko: bets $45
Joeik : raises $60 to $105
Zelijostocko: calls $60

Turn (Pot : $295.00)

   
Joeik : checks
Zelijostocko: bets $210
Joeik : calls $210

River (Pot : $715.00)

   
Joeik : checks
Zelijostocko: bets $1015.50 and is all-in
Joeik : ?

....... Easiest call in the world, especially vs bobbofitos? =.=
I don't really get how you can fold after playing the hand this way with no info on him.
EDIT: Not that I have any experience playing vs him specifically but he's a pretty loose opener (ie he can have worse jacks) and you played it very weird when you check turn (I think?).

Lol, wtf are you doing

On May 06 2008 06:29 Rhaegar wrote: Lol, wtf are you doing

you check/raising this Flop and/or taking your overall line + you posting this hand = does not compute

First of all, if you have no idea who villain is, why do you call pf? You have no idea how he plays postflop, AJo seems like a pretty simple fold here.. FYI: villain is Bobbofitos from Leggopoker, a LAG player who opens a ton and is def capable of opening weaker Jx's down to even J9s here probably, so vs him calling here might be better although I still don't really like it.

I think that your check/raise on the flop is so small that it looks like a medium pair that want to pick up the pot. Why the small raise? You leave so much money behind for later streets OoP with a very very marginal hand. Especially without any info whatsoever about villain's lines, this sucks.

When Bobbo calls he will probably be doing that a fair amount of the times as a cheap float because a lot of those pairs will c/f a lot of turns. Now with this turn it is less likely he has a Jx, so a medium pair can't c/f. So if Bobbo decides to still take a stab at it there on the turn, you have to understand that he WILL shove the river on you when he decides to bet the turn, especially given stack/pot-ratio left there which would make it impossible for you to call there on a ton of rivers.

In short; if you don't want to call a shove, fold the turn. And yes this is ridiculous, so just snapcall it. Another thing; I don't think Bobbo would bet the turn that small if he had you beat, because it makes his rivershove kinda big and I don't think you are calling a $210 but folding to a $245 bet on this boardtexture.

I would fold preflop unless you know he opens very light. Lead flop, then turn obviously, shove river. As played checkraise is way to small but given the line you took I actually like the trun check and river check if you are hoping to get a shove on the river by bobbo, but if so then this post makes no sense.

mehhhhhhhh i disagree with folding preflop in 6max, even against utg raisers and even against unknowns. it's 6max ffs. i certainly don't think AJ is gonna be a slam-dunk path to wealth and fame BB vs UTG, but i don't think it's a losing hand to play.

this hand is the same as your quads hand btw, so check my post there. but yeah don't c/r and then c/c, that's like 100% guaranteed to scream "hey i'm never bluffing"

if you c/r flop you have to lead the turn. i mean think about it...if you were bluffing, the turn card would be an excellent card to continue, repping JJJ

yeah joe, look at the board man.

your hand is so polar on the flop, c/c'ing the turn should be telling the villain you have the nuts. whether he actually realized that or not here is tough to say since these tables are spalshfests and he saw you check so hes probably trying to snag the pot.

I wanted to represent QQ-AA, is it that unlikely for me to have there? I sometimes play it like that pf and on the flop.

But yea, I like ur points guys, I should have bet the turn.

If youre repping QQ-AA and want to protect them, then instacall river obv. Even if its losing in a vacuum, at least you guarantee some EV to hands you check-raise flop and check-call turn if you have such (i dont play this way though).

Obv, youre instacalling river, I dont think there can be any discussion about that. If youre asking if your line is ok to take with your hand.. It is, in a very small percent of time if you play QQ-AA the same way.

On May 06 2008 08:46 [vital]Myth wrote: if you c/r flop you have to lead the turn. i mean think about it...if you were bluffing, the turn card would be an excellent card to continue, repping JJJ

really?? i think you're totally off the mark here, imo that turn pairing J is actually an extremely bad card to continue bluffs (possibly worst card in deck). id definitely check the turn a decent amount here in joe's spot to balance my range with bluffs i gave up on because the jack fell.

against a typical good aggressive regular opponent, after I've decided to check the turn and he has bet id def think c/c twice is usually the best line to proceed.

i like how joe played the whole hand except the preflop call (id fold, i think its -ev to try and play AJo out of position for 4bb against a tough aggressive regular raising utg), now pay off on the river.

I think we should continue betting AJ on turn at least like 2/3 of the time and a set - always and theres no reason not to fire turn occasionally and river very rarely as a bluff.

Im with ket 100%

I rarely fire a second barrel with a bluff on that turn so i think c/c c/c is good.

lol? wtf are you doing, how is this even close

call preflop is atrocious. i like the check call check to set up the river bluff/worse vbet by him

Your hand looks like TT-88.

If I'm in villains spot I'm going for a thin value push w/ TT on the river.

To play devils advocate - he's not betting overpair/1pair type hands on the turn, he's checking them for pot control.

So on the river his range is heavily weighted to Jx, 77, 22. He can also have spades, sometimes overpairs and bluffs.

After your baby c/r villain is getting like 4:1 on a call w/ position. Can't he have 7x, a gutshot or even a pure float here?

On May 06 2008 09:31 Ket wrote: Show nested quote + On May 06 2008 08:46 [vital]Myth wrote: if you c/r flop you have to lead the turn. i mean think about it...if you were bluffing, the turn card would be an excellent card to continue, repping JJJ really?? i think you're totally off the mark here, imo that turn pairing J is actually an extremely bad card to continue bluffs (possibly worst card in deck). id definitely check the turn a decent amount here in joe's spot to balance my range with bluffs i gave up on because the jack fell. against a typical good aggressive regular opponent, after I've decided to check the turn and he has bet id def think c/c twice is usually the best line to proceed. i like how joe played the whole hand except the preflop call (id fold, i think its -ev to try and play AJo out of position for 4bb against a tough aggressive regular raising utg), now pay off on the river.

you really don't think people peel one and then fold if you fire on this turn? i find that most people who flat the flop are usually folding to another barrel when nothing really changes on the board (such as top card pairing)

Snap call and let him show you QJ

i hate you

Im guessing the your question is if you should check/raise his life on the river wtf.

your hand is ridiculously underrepresented so much that he can easily be doing this for value with an overpair, i hate your line, u gotta 2nd barrel, unless you often donk small raise on dry boards to give up when called as a bluff often (which u shouldnt), the J turn isnt a great card to continue bluffing but this flop isnt good to bluff anyway so id say 2nd barrel easy it will be hard for him to fold any kind of hand, for the same reason Daut said turn would be a BAD bluff.. why? because the bluff gets called often on that turn... that means u must bet.

so wtf, hope u snap called

On May 06 2008 13:18 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On May 06 2008 09:31 Ket wrote:   On May 06 2008 08:46 [vital]Myth wrote: if you c/r flop you have to lead the turn. i mean think about it...if you were bluffing, the turn card would be an excellent card to continue, repping JJJ really?? i think you're totally off the mark here, imo that turn pairing J is actually an extremely bad card to continue bluffs (possibly worst card in deck). id definitely check the turn a decent amount here in joe's spot to balance my range with bluffs i gave up on because the jack fell. against a typical good aggressive regular opponent, after I've decided to check the turn and he has bet id def think c/c twice is usually the best line to proceed. i like how joe played the whole hand except the preflop call (id fold, i think its -ev to try and play AJo out of position for 4bb against a tough aggressive regular raising utg), now pay off on the river. you really don't think people peel one and then fold if you fire on this turn? i find that most people who flat the flop are usually folding to another barrel when nothing really changes on the board (such as top card pairing)

no. if they fold turn when u fire again they were peeling ridic light on the flop cause they thought u were fos and were trying to float to later bluff or improve.

If they were peeling flop cause they thought their hand was good and didnt respect ur c/r flop, the jack is a great card for them to see for most of their range cause they either improve or feel more confident in their second pair/pocket tens/etc.

i thought every good player knew that as a general rule of thumb, the worst cards to continue bluffing on are the ones that dont change the board (ofcourse there are exceptions to every rule). i feel like im having to explain some really basic stuff here.

On May 06 2008 20:37 Baal wrote: Im guessing the your question is if you should check/raise his life on the river wtf. your hand is ridiculously underrepresented so much that he can easily be doing this for value with an overpair, i hate your line, u gotta 2nd barrel, unless you often donk small raise on dry boards to give up when called as a bluff often (which u shouldnt), the J turn isnt a great card to continue bluffing but this flop isnt good to bluff anyway so id say 2nd barrel easy it will be hard for him to fold any kind of hand, for the same reason Daut said turn would be a BAD bluff.. why? because the bluff gets called often on that turn... that means u must bet.

the last part of this post is logical and makes a lot of sense. i agree with this and rhaegar when he said we should prolly be betting turn 2/3 of the time, but i definitely think there are merits to also checking the turn sometimes, to balance your range in that spot and to induce big bets from an aggressive player both from bluffs and worse hands going for thin value.

Baal, i dont get how you can say you hate this line even though you understand exactly how underrepresenting your hand in this spot induces huge mistakes from villain.

I dont like it simply because hands like mid-pair TT+ are likely to call 3 streets of value here while they are very likely to pot control either on turn or river.

Dont you think its much easier to see TT stackin off calling on a dry river rather than betting turn and shoving river for very thing value?

i get what youre saying and against different, more passive much less good opponenets who are incapable of strong thin value betting or turning hands into bluffs/running big bluffs id agree with you 101%

but against this opponent, judging from the description that he's a strong capable LAG that's good enough to be working for major training sites, i definitely don't think we're losing much value on the table by checking turn. I don't think he is close to guaranteed to pay off two streets with tens if we go bet-bet on turn/river. and yeah he won't always value-own himself for two bets either but by checking sometimes we not only give him the opportunity to follow through on flop-floats with plans to bluff but we also balance our range for checking the turn in this spot so in future he can't exploit us because we don't always have bluffs we gave up on when we check turn after checkraising flop. This is a very real and very important consideration when playing against strong players, because they are very capable of finding and hammering at weaknesses like these in balance of your overall game. So even if we do lose a small amount of value in a vacuum (and i think it is much smaller than you think it is), I still think checking this turn 1/3 of the time is much much better than checking never.

and im gonna go out on a limb and guess joe's posting this hand cause he ran into a boat (PLZ TELL ME IT WAS THIS AND NOT U CHECKFOLDING RIVER LOL!), if so cooler dont worry u played fine. edit: except for calling preflop ofcourse!

Why is this a topic?

because theres other interesting stuff to discuss in the hand than just an easy river decision

Thanks guys for the discussion.

Ket was right about the result (he had 22) and yea, I called river pretty much instantly. I posted this hand because I thought my line was kinda non-standard (at least for me) and I wanted to see what other players think about it and what would they put me on / what do they think villain can put me on. And I wasnt dissapointed, so thx

Group hug?

dont call PF, reraise or fold PF!

On May 07 2008 02:24 Ket wrote: i get what youre saying and against different, more passive much less good opponenets who are incapable of strong thin value betting or turning hands into bluffs/running big bluffs id agree with you 101% but against this opponent, judging from the description that he's a strong capable LAG that's good enough to be working for major training sites, i definitely don't think we're losing much value on the table by checking turn. I don't think he is close to guaranteed to pay off two streets with tens if we go bet-bet on turn/river. and yeah he won't always value-own himself for two bets either but by checking sometimes we not only give him the opportunity to follow through on flop-floats with plans to bluff but we also balance our range for checking the turn in this spot so in future he can't exploit us because we don't always have bluffs we gave up on when we check turn after checkraising flop. This is a very real and very important consideration when playing against strong players, because they are very capable of finding and hammering at weaknesses like these in balance of your overall game. So even if we do lose a small amount of value in a vacuum (and i think it is much smaller than you think it is), I still think checking this turn 1/3 of the time is much much better than checking never.

Ok, if we assume he is capable of thin vbetting where we could extract 2 more streets of value its very likely he calls 2 str