Top trip top kicker weird line - Page 2

Im guessing the your question is if you should check/raise his life on the river wtf.

your hand is ridiculously underrepresented so much that he can easily be doing this for value with an overpair, i hate your line, u gotta 2nd barrel, unless you often donk small raise on dry boards to give up when called as a bluff often (which u shouldnt), the J turn isnt a great card to continue bluffing but this flop isnt good to bluff anyway so id say 2nd barrel easy it will be hard for him to fold any kind of hand, for the same reason Daut said turn would be a BAD bluff.. why? because the bluff gets called often on that turn... that means u must bet.

so wtf, hope u snap called

On May 06 2008 13:18 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On May 06 2008 09:31 Ket wrote:   On May 06 2008 08:46 [vital]Myth wrote: if you c/r flop you have to lead the turn. i mean think about it...if you were bluffing, the turn card would be an excellent card to continue, repping JJJ really?? i think you're totally off the mark here, imo that turn pairing J is actually an extremely bad card to continue bluffs (possibly worst card in deck). id definitely check the turn a decent amount here in joe's spot to balance my range with bluffs i gave up on because the jack fell. against a typical good aggressive regular opponent, after I've decided to check the turn and he has bet id def think c/c twice is usually the best line to proceed. i like how joe played the whole hand except the preflop call (id fold, i think its -ev to try and play AJo out of position for 4bb against a tough aggressive regular raising utg), now pay off on the river. you really don't think people peel one and then fold if you fire on this turn? i find that most people who flat the flop are usually folding to another barrel when nothing really changes on the board (such as top card pairing)

no. if they fold turn when u fire again they were peeling ridic light on the flop cause they thought u were fos and were trying to float to later bluff or improve.

If they were peeling flop cause they thought their hand was good and didnt respect ur c/r flop, the jack is a great card for them to see for most of their range cause they either improve or feel more confident in their second pair/pocket tens/etc.

i thought every good player knew that as a general rule of thumb, the worst cards to continue bluffing on are the ones that dont change the board (ofcourse there are exceptions to every rule). i feel like im having to explain some really basic stuff here.

On May 06 2008 20:37 Baal wrote: Im guessing the your question is if you should check/raise his life on the river wtf. your hand is ridiculously underrepresented so much that he can easily be doing this for value with an overpair, i hate your line, u gotta 2nd barrel, unless you often donk small raise on dry boards to give up when called as a bluff often (which u shouldnt), the J turn isnt a great card to continue bluffing but this flop isnt good to bluff anyway so id say 2nd barrel easy it will be hard for him to fold any kind of hand, for the same reason Daut said turn would be a BAD bluff.. why? because the bluff gets called often on that turn... that means u must bet.

the last part of this post is logical and makes a lot of sense. i agree with this and rhaegar when he said we should prolly be betting turn 2/3 of the time, but i definitely think there are merits to also checking the turn sometimes, to balance your range in that spot and to induce big bets from an aggressive player both from bluffs and worse hands going for thin value.

Baal, i dont get how you can say you hate this line even though you understand exactly how underrepresenting your hand in this spot induces huge mistakes from villain.

I dont like it simply because hands like mid-pair TT+ are likely to call 3 streets of value here while they are very likely to pot control either on turn or river.

Dont you think its much easier to see TT stackin off calling on a dry river rather than betting turn and shoving river for very thing value?

i get what youre saying and against different, more passive much less good opponenets who are incapable of strong thin value betting or turning hands into bluffs/running big bluffs id agree with you 101%

but against this opponent, judging from the description that he's a strong capable LAG that's good enough to be working for major training sites, i definitely don't think we're losing much value on the table by checking turn. I don't think he is close to guaranteed to pay off two streets with tens if we go bet-bet on turn/river. and yeah he won't always value-own himself for two bets either but by checking sometimes we not only give him the opportunity to follow through on flop-floats with plans to bluff but we also balance our range for checking the turn in this spot so in future he can't exploit us because we don't always have bluffs we gave up on when we check turn after checkraising flop. This is a very real and very important consideration when playing against strong players, because they are very capable of finding and hammering at weaknesses like these in balance of your overall game. So even if we do lose a small amount of value in a vacuum (and i think it is much smaller than you think it is), I still think checking this turn 1/3 of the time is much much better than checking never.

and im gonna go out on a limb and guess joe's posting this hand cause he ran into a boat (PLZ TELL ME IT WAS THIS AND NOT U CHECKFOLDING RIVER LOL!), if so cooler dont worry u played fine. edit: except for calling preflop ofcourse!

Why is this a topic?

because theres other interesting stuff to discuss in the hand than just an easy river decision

Thanks guys for the discussion.

Ket was right about the result (he had 22) and yea, I called river pretty much instantly. I posted this hand because I thought my line was kinda non-standard (at least for me) and I wanted to see what other players think about it and what would they put me on / what do they think villain can put me on. And I wasnt dissapointed, so thx

Group hug?

dont call PF, reraise or fold PF!

On May 07 2008 02:24 Ket wrote: i get what youre saying and against different, more passive much less good opponenets who are incapable of strong thin value betting or turning hands into bluffs/running big bluffs id agree with you 101% but against this opponent, judging from the description that he's a strong capable LAG that's good enough to be working for major training sites, i definitely don't think we're losing much value on the table by checking turn. I don't think he is close to guaranteed to pay off two streets with tens if we go bet-bet on turn/river. and yeah he won't always value-own himself for two bets either but by checking sometimes we not only give him the opportunity to follow through on flop-floats with plans to bluff but we also balance our range for checking the turn in this spot so in future he can't exploit us because we don't always have bluffs we gave up on when we check turn after checkraising flop. This is a very real and very important consideration when playing against strong players, because they are very capable of finding and hammering at weaknesses like these in balance of your overall game. So even if we do lose a small amount of value in a vacuum (and i think it is much smaller than you think it is), I still think checking this turn 1/3 of the time is much much better than checking never.

Ok, if we assume he is capable of thin vbetting where we could extract 2 more streets of value its very likely he calls 2 streets of value too as u mentioned.

The thing is that with this super dry turn it would be hard for him to continue a float, even if he does on turn after we call on that super dry board it would be very difficult for him to think he can push us off our hand after we CR flop and C/C turn, the board is so dry his range is so polarized induced many calls from marginal holdings and he knows that so a total bluff on turn and river seems a bit crazy... im not saying he cannot do it, im just saying that since we stack off the same hands that will vbet thin by betting its probably better to bet anyway.

Maybe for the purpouse of balancing our range but atleast personally i rarely CR small flop to then CF turn, its such a weak exploitable play in general so balancing that play isnt that important since we almost never do it (atleast shouldnt).

Im with Baal, bet your strong hands most of the time, if you think youre never bluffing on turn, this means that he must always be playing back so...

On May 06 2008 22:11 Ket wrote: Show nested quote + On May 06 2008 13:18 [vital]Myth wrote:   On May 06 2008 09:31 Ket wrote:   On May 06 2008 08:46 [vital]Myth wrote: if you c/r flop you have to lead the turn. i mean think about it...if you were bluffing, the turn card would be an excellent card to continue, repping JJJ really?? i think you're totally off the mark here, imo that turn pairing J is actually an extremely bad card to continue bluffs (possibly worst card in deck). id definitely check the turn a decent amount here in joe's spot to balance my range with bluffs i gave up on because the jack fell. against a typical good aggressive regular opponent, after I've decided to check the turn and he has bet id def think c/c twice is usually the best line to proceed. i like how joe played the whole hand except the preflop call (id fold, i think its -ev to try and play AJo out of position for 4bb against a tough aggressive regular raising utg), now pay off on the river. you really don't think people peel one and then fold if you fire on this turn? i find that most people who flat the flop are usually folding to another barrel when nothing really changes on the board (such as top card pairing) no. if they fold turn when u fire again they were peeling ridic light on the flop cause they thought u were fos and were trying to float to later bluff or improve. If they were peeling flop cause they thought their hand was good and didnt respect ur c/r flop, the jack is a great card for them to see for most of their range cause they either improve or feel more confident in their second pair/pocket tens/etc. i thought every good player knew that as a general rule of thumb, the worst cards to continue bluffing on are the ones that dont change the board (ofcourse there are exceptions to every rule). i feel like im having to explain some really basic stuff here.

i think i'm leveling myself, assuming people will figure that you can't continue bluffing on a card that changes nothing -.-

EASY check raise on the turn.: your range for check raising flop and check calling turn is extremely polarized to never having any bluffs.

On May 08 2008 19:02 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On May 06 2008 22:11 Ket wrote:   On May 06 2008 13:18 [vital]Myth wrote:   On May 06 2008 09:31 Ket wrote:   On May 06 2008 08:46 [vital]Myth wrote: if you c/r flop you have to lead the turn. i mean think about it...if you were bluffing, the turn card would be an excellent card to continue, repping JJJ really?? i think you're totally off the mark here, imo that turn pairing J is actually an extremely bad card to continue bluffs (possibly worst card in deck). id definitely check the turn a decent amount here in joe's spot to balance my range with bluffs i gave up on because the jack fell. against a typical good aggressive regular opponent, after I've decided to check the turn and he has bet id def think c/c twice is usually the best line to proceed. i like how joe played the whole hand except the preflop call (id fold, i think its -ev to try and play AJo out of position for 4bb against a tough aggressive regular raising utg), now pay off on the river. you really don't think people peel one and then fold if you fire on this turn? i find that most people who flat the flop are usually folding to another barrel when nothing really changes on the board (such as top card pairing) no. if they fold turn when u fire again they were peeling ridic light on the flop cause they thought u were fos and were trying to float to later bluff or improve. If they were peeling flop cause they thought their hand was good and didnt respect ur c/r flop, the jack is a great card for them to see for most of their range cause they either improve or feel more confident in their second pair/pocket tens/etc. i thought every good player knew that as a general rule of thumb, the worst cards to continue bluffing on are the ones that dont change the board (ofcourse there are exceptions to every rule). i feel like im having to explain some really basic stuff here. i think i'm leveling myself, assuming people will figure that you can't continue bluffing on a card that changes nothing -.-

fuck that dude just keep pumping it the cards dont matter just make them believe

FOLD PREFLOP, a good players range UTG should beat you blue.

Oh Vital[Myth]'s comment on call "its 6max" freaks me out... What stats does you have Vital, calling UTG w AJo in blinds!? Probably a huge gap between VPIP/PFR, that callinggap, big callgaps gets you into a load of problem. (Critique coming from me as 24.9/21.2 sience april 5-6handed)

When getting up vs good players at 10/20 etc you realise you cant fight OOP profitably easy. AJo vs UTG is at best like how 'Q7o is vs an random hand', and that guy is the agressor now also! Gooosh its a FOOOOOOLD preflop!

Btw, he probably has 22-77 or AJ. Enjoy your shitty situation