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River valuebet or not?


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Joe   Czech Republic. Apr 29 2008 08:53. Posts 4552

Submitted by : Joe

Full Tilt Poker Game #6222696684: Table Alamosa (6 max) - $5/$10 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:50:12 ET - 2008/04/29
Seat 1: TheCardFish ($1,674.50)
Seat 2: BallinByDaBay ($865)
Seat 3: pockets2Qo ($488.75)
Seat 4: worldsgrtest ($1,992)
Seat 5: spexel1 ($1,264)
Seat 6: Joeik ($1,000)
spexel1 posts the small blind of $5
Joeik posts the big blind of $10
The button is in seat #4

Holecards
Dealt to Joeik 7sQs
TheCardFish folds
BallinByDaBay folds
pockets2Qo folds
worldsgrtest folds
spexel1 raises to $30
Joeik calls $20

Flop (Pot : $60.00)

   4hKhQd
spexel1 bets $40
Joeik has 15 seconds left to act
Joeik raises to $120
spexel1 has 15 seconds left to act
spexel1 calls $80

Turn (Pot : $300.00)

   4hKhQd4s
spexel1 checks
Joeik checks

River (Pot : $300.00)

   4hKhQd4s4d
spexel1 checks
Joeik ?



Just a quick question - do u think this is a standard valuebet here on the river when he didnt bet it?

there is a light at the end of the tunnel... (but sometimes the tunnel is long and deep as hell) 

Ket    United Kingdom. Apr 29 2008 09:46. Posts 5662

id check, he can easily have a better hand here and he can easily c/r riv bluff a missed heart draw (balanced by c/r riv with AA for value) or maybe some low pair he decides to turn into a bluff. its also difficult for him to pay off by check calling worse.

nit life 

ToT)MidiaN(   United Kingdom. Apr 29 2008 10:04. Posts 3338

i dont like flop. i think you can rep some missed draws but i dunno how many worse made hands he calls on the flop, and he also may check a better hand to induce a missed draw to bluff so you could just end up getting c/red with better and sometimes also bluffed like ket said. i think as played i vbet but i dont love it and dont expect to get called by worse all that often

At least triple barrelling 

Baal   . Apr 29 2008 11:07. Posts 15571

hell no, what hand calls a raise on the flop that calls a vbet on the river.

DCal Zone: DIE YOU LIQUID POKER CLOWNS 

PoorUser    United States. Apr 29 2008 13:55. Posts 5268

ez check

Moneys gotta go in here 

Joe   Czech Republic. Apr 29 2008 16:37. Posts 4552

Ok, this was basically just a quick thought check for me, because I feel I often miss some river value bets.

(I checked, he had JT.)

Jamie so whats ur line in this hand?

there is a light at the end of the tunnel... (but sometimes the tunnel is long and deep as hell) 

ToT)MidiaN(   United Kingdom. Apr 29 2008 16:48. Posts 3338

unsure, i think raising flop in position is not bad afterall. i think c/ring would be bad though because there's no chance of checking back turn etc, would be a much grosser spot if he had called the flop with JT like he did here if you were oop cause he has the freedom to bluff the turn and also value bet you with almost any king, if not any king. i guess my standard line would be to either call 1/fold turn if he is not capable of firing 2nd/3rd with a wide range of draws or even air or just call down 3 streets if all draws miss/fold whatever street brings a bad card. also sometimes might call 2 to fold to river if i think he bets 2 streets with a draw but not riv when it misses. really depends on the player and how much he barrels. one negative about raising flop is that it reopens the betting though so i guess if he's never like 3bet/calling flop with a hand like JT/Kx for value or various other draws/made hands then it's ok in position as obviously you don't wanna play for stacks but you don't wanna get bluffed by his draws either.

At least triple barrellingLast edit: 29/04/2008 16:51

Nazgul    Netherlands. Apr 29 2008 20:00. Posts 4303

flop raise is a classic example of you never make him fold better and always make him fold worse

You almost twin-caracked his AK - JonnyCosmo 

[vital]Myth    United States. Apr 29 2008 21:13. Posts 8933


  On April 29 2008 20:00 Nazgul wrote:
flop raise is a classic example of you never make him fold better and always make him fold worse

not always. there are several draws out that he can definitely call with (like he actually did, JT). plus raising here with middle pair is kinda sick mindfuck for merging your ranges and whatnot

Wednesday night, Im on the list: T-Pain plus three 

Rekrul   United States. Apr 29 2008 21:45. Posts 2486

lmao at joe posting his other nit threads then questioning if he should value bet or not here

LOL CONFUSION

LOvEDoM says: me hate he, me re raise 

[vital]Myth    United States. Apr 29 2008 22:27. Posts 8933

*wags finger at rekrul*

Wednesday night, Im on the list: T-Pain plus three 

Daut    United States. Apr 29 2008 23:48. Posts 4050

*rubs crotch winking at myth*

I think that poker is comparable to a starcraft 2v2 where your partner is your bankroll. It really sucks when im terran and they both rush my bankroll. - Travis Victor says: sending me pokerhand is like spitting in my face 

NMcNasty    United States. Apr 30 2008 08:03. Posts 386

pot to bluff off a split

asdfasdf 

Twisted    Netherlands. Apr 30 2008 12:51. Posts 6040


  On April 29 2008 20:00 Nazgul wrote:
flop raise is a classic example of you never make him fold better and always make him fold worse



I think raptor from CR actually thinks raising with a weak holding is good and he counters this argument by saying that a lot of scarecards can come on the turn which an agressive player will bet 100% of the time forcing you to lay down the hand.

The hand becomes easier to play when you raise the flop (and he also explains that making it easier to play is something people often call an excuse for not maximizing your EV, but when the hand becomes easier you make less mistakes).

I kinda like that thinking though I usually call flop here too.


 


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