River valuebet or not?

Submitted by : Joe

Full Tilt Poker Game #6222696684: Table Alamosa (6 max) - $5/$10 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:50:12 ET - 2008/04/29
Seat 1: TheCardFish ($1,674.50)
Seat 2: BallinByDaBay ($865)
Seat 3: pockets2Qo ($488.75)
Seat 4: worldsgrtest ($1,992)
Seat 5: spexel1 ($1,264)
Seat 6: Joeik ($1,000)
spexel1 posts the small blind of $5
Joeik posts the big blind of $10
The button is in seat #4

Holecards
Dealt to Joeik
TheCardFish folds
BallinByDaBay folds
pockets2Qo folds
worldsgrtest folds
spexel1 raises to $30
Joeik calls $20

Flop (Pot : $60.00)

   
spexel1 bets $40
Joeik has 15 seconds left to act
Joeik raises to $120
spexel1 has 15 seconds left to act
spexel1 calls $80

Turn (Pot : $300.00)

   
spexel1 checks
Joeik checks

River (Pot : $300.00)

   
spexel1 checks
Joeik ?

id check, he can easily have a better hand here and he can easily c/r riv bluff a missed heart draw (balanced by c/r riv with AA for value) or maybe some low pair he decides to turn into a bluff. its also difficult for him to pay off by check calling worse.

i dont like flop. i think you can rep some missed draws but i dunno how many worse made hands he calls on the flop, and he also may check a better hand to induce a missed draw to bluff so you could just end up getting c/red with better and sometimes also bluffed like ket said. i think as played i vbet but i dont love it and dont expect to get called by worse all that often

hell no, what hand calls a raise on the flop that calls a vbet on the river.

ez check

Ok, this was basically just a quick thought check for me, because I feel I often miss some river value bets.

(I checked, he had JT.)

Jamie so whats ur line in this hand?

unsure, i think raising flop in position is not bad afterall. i think c/ring would be bad though because there's no chance of checking back turn etc, would be a much grosser spot if he had called the flop with JT like he did here if you were oop cause he has the freedom to bluff the turn and also value bet you with almost any king, if not any king. i guess my standard line would be to either call 1/fold turn if he is not capable of firing 2nd/3rd with a wide range of draws or even air or just call down 3 streets if all draws miss/fold whatever street brings a bad card. also sometimes might call 2 to fold to river if i think he bets 2 streets with a draw but not riv when it misses. really depends on the player and how much he barrels. one negative about raising flop is that it reopens the betting though so i guess if he's never like 3bet/calling flop with a hand like JT/Kx for value or various other draws/made hands then it's ok in position as obviously you don't wanna play for stacks but you don't wanna get bluffed by his draws either.

flop raise is a classic example of you never make him fold better and always make him fold worse

On April 29 2008 20:00 Nazgul wrote: flop raise is a classic example of you never make him fold better and always make him fold worse

not always. there are several draws out that he can definitely call with (like he actually did, JT). plus raising here with middle pair is kinda sick mindfuck for merging your ranges and whatnot

lmao at joe posting his other nit threads then questioning if he should value bet or not here

LOL CONFUSION

*wags finger at rekrul*

*rubs crotch winking at myth*

pot to bluff off a split

On April 29 2008 20:00 Nazgul wrote: flop raise is a classic example of you never make him fold better and always make him fold worse

I think raptor from CR actually thinks raising with a weak holding is good and he counters this argument by saying that a lot of scarecards can come on the turn which an agressive player will bet 100% of the time forcing you to lay down the hand.

The hand becomes easier to play when you raise the flop (and he also explains that making it easier to play is something people often call an excuse for not maximizing your EV, but when the hand becomes easier you make less mistakes).

I kinda like that thinking though I usually call flop here too.