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Timing Tell Concepts


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Forum Index > Articles Experienced
[vital]Myth    United States. Apr 25 2008 23:48. Posts 9185

Timing Tell Concepts
by Corwin Cole

When I began playing poker in 2005, I was spending all of my time at Casino Morongo in the Southern California desert near Palm Springs, playing $3/6 fixed limit Hold ‘Em. I was, like most beginners who feel competitive about poker, obsessed with “tells” and the idea of “soul-reading.” Needless to say, I was misguided. Where I was searching for psychic powers, I should have been looking for some lessons in deductive logic. Once I began playing online, I got a better sense for the proper place of “tells” in the realm of poker knowledge.

Playing poker online necessitates a near-flawless foundation of theory for any successful competitor. But beyond the range analysis, the bet-sizing, and the equity-versus-odds math, we have some more esoteric tools at our disposal. We can consider adjacent concepts that are not very mathematical in nature, such as “image building,” “gameflow,” and “timing tells.” It is the last of these that I will discuss today.

“Timing tells” are familiar lingo but poorly studied. In the span of my experience with online poker, I’ve come across less than a handful of important and accurate tells. In an early CardRunners video, Taylor Caby (GreenPlastic) pointed out that a quick call on the flop often indicates a weak made hand or a draw. This is probably the most well-known timing tell that has ever been discussed. More recently, David Benefield (Raptor) suggested that a fast 4-bet usually betrays a bluff or weaker all-in hand, like AK, while a slower 4-bet generally means QQ+. In my eyes, this tell has merit but is less reliable than Taylor’s. Finally, it seems the consensus that, when playing with poorer opponents, a quicker-than-normal bet or raise is usually a sign of strength. As far as I’ve explored, this simple paragraph encompasses the state of timing tells in online poker’s knowledge base.

Personally, I find this field wanting. In this article, I will propose two central concepts for the development of timing tells: first, that a player’s timing implies the ease of his decision; and second, that a player’s timing implies the extent of his planning. With these concepts in mind, I will explore some rudimentary applications of timing reads.


Concept 1: A player’s timing implies the ease of his decision

The idea here is quite simple. If a player thinks a bit before making his decision, then he has alternatives and he is weighing them, trying to determine the best course of action. On the other hand, if he spends no time at all making his decision, then he feels that he has no alternatives – the best action is obvious and indubitable. This, in fact, is clearly the key to understanding Taylor’s famous tell. When an opponent makes a quick call, he does not consider raising or folding. For this reason, the hands that best fit into the category of “obvious call, never raise or fold” are draws and medium-strength made hands. There’s no magic to it – if a player acts quickly, his decision is easy. More slowly, and his play is not so obvious.

It is important, though, to realize that “easy” and “difficult” don’t necessarily point to anything exact. Interpretation is everything. For example, I may feel that slowplaying a monster hand is “obviously” the best way to play in a certain scenario, given my read on my opponent and other factors. Because of this, I may very quickly check and/or call with my hand, which by classical understanding would indicate that I have a medium-strength hand or draw. However, my actual hand is quite different. And, more importantly, I am not trying to offer a “reverse timing tell” to my opponent – instead, I am acting quickly because my decision is easy, but I am sitting on a huge hand. At the same time, I may require careful consideration of my options with the same hand, at a different time or against a different opponent. Under other conditions, my monster hand may be played passively or aggressively, and it might be a real challenge to figure out which is better. The only information we can gather from timing is the ease or difficulty of a decision – it is another task to correctly interpret that data.

Beyond the fact that interpretation is critical, deception obviously does exist. We have probably all tried to use timing to deceive our opponents at some time. And many of us have probably made the blunder of leveling ourselves, by reading a timing tell as a deception when it was not. My best advice is to throw timing tells out the window when you suspect deception, unless for some reason you have a great understanding of your opponent’s preferred style of lying.


Concept 2: A player’s timing implies the extent of his planning

This concept is a little more difficult. When someone performs a series of bets with consistently quick timing, those bets have usually been planned from the beginning. In contrast, when an opponent makes one bet quickly and another slowly, the latter bet was often not anticipated. The idea here is really an off-shoot of the first concept. When bets are planned, they’re easier to make; when they’re not planned, they require some decision-making along the way.

Let me illustrate with an example. Many players tend to turn their monster hands face-up, by displaying the fact that they already know they want to play a large pot from the time the hand begins. So, suppose you see an opponent raise preflop and then fire out large bets on every street, rather quickly. The fact that all of his bets are rapid means that he expected to make them before he got there. And how many hands really raise preflop expecting to make a large river bet? Only the big ones.

Other players give away a type of polarization in their future decisions, by acting very quickly in a passive state. For instance, if an opponent check/calls your continuation bet on a dry flop, then checks very quickly when the turn is an ace, he is clearly either planning to call three barrels or planning to fold to a second barrel. The ace, in essence, forces an all-or-nothing attitude towards his turn and river play, and the fact that he checks, calls, and then checks again so quickly gives that away. Instead, if he hesitates before checking once the ace lands, he may have re-considered whether he will proceed with the check/call mode that he represented on the flop.

Another example may be more cut-and-dry. Poor players often plan to lead out if they hit their draws. When an opponent who seems like a bad player checks and calls quickly, indicating a draw, then leads quickly when the primary draw hits, he was obviously planning to bet out when that card came, and this almost certainly means that he hit the draw. Because they are somewhat uncommon, leading bets tend to carry a strong sense of planning. When somebody leads out, you’ll most often have a good idea whether they planned to do so or not, based on the quickness of their bet.

Applications of these concepts

As pots get larger and opponents seem more committed, people tend to give less consideration to the obviousness of their hands. Because of this, the ease or difficulty of a river decision can be used to distinguish between nut holdings and strong-but-beatable hands. If you are involved in a large pot and you seem committed to take your hand to the felt, you may realize that your opponent can get all-in with some hands that beat you and some that don’t. However, he may be unlikely to feel completely comfortable getting all-in with the hands that might lose to you. If that is the case, he will probably consider his play a little while longer before going all-in. On the other hand, if he has the stone-cold nuts, he will be unlikely to delay before shoving. If you use this idea properly, you can make a few more huge folds where a pure analysis of hand ranges and pot odds would dictate a call.

In heads-up play, and somewhat in shorthanded games, battles become personal. When you know your opponent backward and forward, and he hasn’t figured you out, you have a monumental advantage. But the mere appearance of this edge can actually create the edge itself. If my opponent seems like he knows exactly what to do against me at every step, I’m likely to give him credit for having the upper hand, whether or not he’s actually reading me well. In general, the faster somebody acts on average when playing against a certain opponent, the more comfortable the match-up feels. And this is an indicator of confidence. Somebody who seems consistently perplexed and indecisive is going to act slowly most of the time, as if every decision is agonizing. But a confident player who feels that he has the advantage is going to make most of his decisions quickly. This idea can be used to encourage you to turn up the heat and keep the pressure on your unconfident opponent, or it can signal that it may be time to play against somebody else.

Throughout the course of a single hand, the tides can – and often do – turn. When a new card causes a player to re-evaluate his hand, he will show it by changing his timing. For instance, if his hand is quite weak and suddenly becomes stronger on the next street, he may have acted very quickly to begin with but now spend some more time thinking about his actions. A common example of this occurs when players flop sets with small pairs. Preflop, they will often take no time at all in just calling – after all, setmining is an easy decision. But once the flop comes and they have hit their set, they begin trying to determine what they will do with it to extract value, and their actions on the flop will take a noticeably longer time. When a player re-evaluates, you will notice that he takes quite a bit longer to make his decision than he did on the previous street.

This short list of ideas in the realm of timing tells is only the beginning of what will likely be a consistently interesting and changing field. As internet players, we must live in the nuances and the minutiae. We can’t see somebody’s body language or hear the tone in their voice, so we must make careful interpretations of subtle data that they offer. Timing tells are one of the most important non-mathematical tools that we have, and I encourage you to understand them as well as you can.

Eh, I can go a few more orbits in life, before taxes blind me out - PoorUser 

SemPeR   Canada. Apr 26 2008 00:13. Posts 1160

good read, as always.

25nl froob / microstakes grinder: PM me if you want to review hands / talk poker or are a 25nl or higher player willing to donate or trade sweating sessions 

Forrest Gump   Argentina. Apr 26 2008 00:16. Posts 1002

A+ post
mastering timing tells and timing actions is not easy

ADZ124: why do people put pictures of their child in stars.. its like please help feed my child im a fish i cant play? 

jase   Australia. Apr 26 2008 00:30. Posts 777

real good post!


n0rthf4ce    United States. Apr 26 2008 01:19. Posts 5750

well written sir!

altho i always act slow as hell in hu cause im always thinking --;

www.cardrunners.com 

n0rthf4ce    United States. Apr 26 2008 01:19. Posts 5750

or pretending to think ^^

www.cardrunners.com 

Soprano   Poland. Apr 26 2008 02:55. Posts 171

n1
ty

If U R 2 careful your whole life can become a fukin grind 

SneakrFreakr   United Kingdom. Apr 26 2008 04:24. Posts 1993

good read

rivered for my fucking bankroll - NeillyJQ 

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Apr 26 2008 04:34. Posts 628

nice article


mikeymoo   Canada. Apr 26 2008 05:01. Posts 272


  On April 26 2008 00:13 SemPeR wrote:
good read, as always.


Wow, I just realized this is an incidental pun.
Good read yo~
EDIT: And thanks, obviously.

 Last edit: 26/04/2008 05:01

Avius   Germany. Apr 26 2008 05:10. Posts 69

very nice read, thank you
i love LP.net

 Last edit: 26/04/2008 05:10

Avius   Germany. Apr 26 2008 05:11. Posts 69


  On April 26 2008 05:01 mikeymoo wrote:
Show nested quote +


Wow, I just realized this is an incidental pun.
Good read yo~
EDIT: And thanks, obviously.


because semper = always? :D


Nuros   United Kingdom. Apr 26 2008 06:04. Posts 662

i like, standard n1 from myth


Oly   United Kingdom. Apr 26 2008 06:13. Posts 955

Thanks. I hadn't thought of applying a combination of timing tells together from say preflop and flop before like I would a combination of betting information. That's going to be really useful.


Bejamin1   Canada. Apr 26 2008 07:42. Posts 2799

n1 standard hero Myth <3

Never let a woman get inside your head, thats why I prefer not to even talk to my dates. -Rob Corrdry 

bane   United States. Apr 26 2008 08:04. Posts 603


  On April 26 2008 01:19 n0rthf4ce wrote:
well written sir!

altho i always act slow as hell in hu cause im always thinking --;



of course you will act slow when your playing for like a billion dollars

and v. good article~

with a little bit of gold and a pager 

Yugless    United States. Apr 26 2008 08:37. Posts 6128

well done Mr Myth <3

i heard yugless plays 100/70/10 and has a 666ptbb/100 w/r - Ket 

Unicorn   United Kingdom. Apr 26 2008 10:26. Posts 6

really good article, thanks


TimDawg   United States. Apr 26 2008 10:46. Posts 5426


  On April 26 2008 07:42 Bejamin1 wrote:
n1 standard hero Myth <3

iamalex: lol what if you were cursed by a mummy to never win showdowns. you could only play fold equity. that would suck man 

Loco   Canada. Apr 26 2008 10:53. Posts 13501

nice

tho 25nl with 250 roll is stupid tho started with 50 2 day ago ..i stick 10nl sometimes get bored and give 25nl shot but noone gives respct since i have very aggro hydralist icon - wolfheart 

Frile   Croatia. Apr 26 2008 11:17. Posts 15

good read. ty myth


JizzleSmitts   United States. Apr 26 2008 11:29. Posts 643

vn thanks myth

Call me ja cause I rule. 

SpoR   United States. Apr 26 2008 13:10. Posts 371

props

Hack To The Future 

thundza   United States. Apr 26 2008 14:09. Posts 1231

well written .

nice to see another article!


SemPeR   Canada. Apr 26 2008 16:24. Posts 1160


  On April 26 2008 01:19 n0rthf4ce wrote:
or pretending to think ^^



I felt I might add with the effectiveness of simply waiting a bit before acting to make you harder to read. On sites like party with no auto timebank, just wait until the timer counts down if you're afraid you're giving away important information on your actions that an observant player might pick up on. The good it does me at 10nl though. T_T

25nl froob / microstakes grinder: PM me if you want to review hands / talk poker or are a 25nl or higher player willing to donate or trade sweating sessions 

ManaBlue   Canada. Apr 26 2008 17:12. Posts 35

Wow Myth, that was a really really good read.
Nice stuff.

Thank you poker, I will never be good at SC now. 

BenGb   Canada. Apr 26 2008 18:00. Posts 362

Thanks for that article.

wallaP 

D_Zoo   Canada. Apr 26 2008 18:48. Posts 1107

too many big words!

metagame purposes 

[GiTM]-Ace   United States. Apr 26 2008 18:56. Posts 114

yea I agree with GP those quick calls usually mean they are on a draw. And the other day when I hit my set on turn a guy folded his overpair cause I took to long to bet lol I was mad

[GiTM]- GoSu in the Making 

DarkDevildog   United States. Apr 27 2008 01:28. Posts 433

very good read

I have a cabin in joshua tree =] going to morongo tomorrow actually... i'm not a balla like you though, i'll only play 1/3

hey, if the shoe fits right? 

[vital]Myth    United States. Apr 27 2008 11:39. Posts 9185


  On April 27 2008 01:28 DarkDevildog wrote:
very good read

I have a cabin in joshua tree =] going to morongo tomorrow actually... i'm not a balla like you though, i'll only play 1/3

probably better to buy in somewhat short to 2/5, the 1/3 structure is awful and the rake is huge

Eh, I can go a few more orbits in life, before taxes blind me out - PoorUser 

k2o4   United States. Apr 27 2008 15:55. Posts 1708

great read, keep up the good work myth. more articles on timing tells would be awesome. Since I started playing less tables I've kind of instinctively noticed some of the things you mentioned and am only recently becoming conscious about them.

Nada 

Cray0ns   United States. Apr 29 2008 01:32. Posts 282

<3 so sexy


marigoLd   . Apr 29 2008 12:19. Posts 18

Or like when someone is 3betting you pre. If it's folded to you, you open and get instantly 3bet by some dude, then he often has a nut hand. Reasoning is that he was gonna play his hand 100% sure no matter the action and was already ready and eagerly waiting to raise or reraise before the betting even started.
If he had like 56s, would he really insta-3bet your "unexpected" open? He would at least evaluate the situation for a few seconds, check out the action, check out your stats, your position, ...


marigoLd   . Apr 29 2008 12:26. Posts 18

I also use it to my advantage sometimes. Like for example when I open a hand like AA, and some dude 3bets me IP, I'll often just insta jam AI in less then 1 sec, trying to rep AK.

insta jamming is ultra scary post-flop too, but then it's more the other way around and you'll be suprised how much more FE you get by raising/jamming like less then 1 sec after they bet.


<
MARSHALL28   United States. May 05 2008 16:25. Posts 480


  On April 29 2008 12:26 marigoLd wrote:
I also use it to my advantage sometimes. Like for example when I open a hand like AA, and some dude 3bets me IP, I'll often just insta jam AI in less then 1 sec, trying to rep AK.

insta jamming is ultra scary post-flop too, but then it's more the other way around and you'll be suprised how much more FE you get by raising/jamming like less then 1 sec after they bet.



the reasoning for this is because it appears as if it was something that you had planned to do, and since you arent taking any time to consider what the ensuing card might have changed, it looks REALLY strong. If you don't do it instantly, it's to be taken that you aren't sure what to do (or are hollywooding) .. but most of the time it should be taken as if you have a genuine decision and arent sure how to play your hand or what decision to make just yet. this makes stuff like jamming the river after a lot of thought seem to be a bluff or weaker hand in general between two thinking players who have history, that is of course, unless you think by pretending to think that it is the case that you will get a weaker call. regardless, this is all dependant accordingly upon the level u think your opponent is thinking on, and his current psychological state.

http://marshall28.liquidpoker.net/