25/50 KQ vs pooper

Submitted by : MezmerizePLZ

POKERSTARS GAME #16925299498: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($25/$50) - 2008/04/22 - 21:04:44 (ET)
Table 'Ellicott II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: poopers ($32041 in chips)
Seat 2: LittleZen ($322 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero ($5675 in chips)
Seat 4: brianm15 ($7169 in chips)
Seat 5: muchbetter ($15279 in chips)
Seat 6: philivey2694 ($5627 in chips)
LittleZen: posts small blind $25
Hero : posts big blind $50

Holecards
Dealt to Hero
brianm15: folds
muchbetter: folds
philivey2694: folds
poopers: raises $100 to $150
LittleZen: folds
Hero : raises $400 to $550
poopers: calls $400

Flop (Pot : $1,125.00)

   
Hero : bets $800
poopers: calls $800

Turn (Pot : $2,725.00)

   
Hero : bets $2350

hmm considering he has been pretty tight in ur recent history, wouldn't it be fair to assume you're always beat when he shoves?

I really don't know this is a really confusing spot against this player

i dont see poopers flatting this flop w/ draws much. as such i think he either has a strong ace /set he doesnt want to fold or a pocket pair that he is never going to bet on this turn. unless you've been playing like a total maniac and it doesn't seem like you have, I really dislike this bet on the turn for value. I think there are 2 good reasons to bet w/ ur hand here, both of which I don't think are good enough to justify the bet. reason 1 is if we've been playing super solid, we can get him to fold AJ/A10 here maybe. turning our hand into a bluff here might be good vs poopers because I don't think he ever expects you to bluff...but that doesn't mean hes folding really. reason 2 is we don't want him to turn a hand like 1010, which he floated on the flop, to turn it into a bluff on the river leaving us in a tough river spot. I feel if he does bet the river though, no matter what it is, this will be a very slim piece of his betting range. all in all i think this is bad.

and if it is good he often has a lot of outs

What kind of hands do you have in mind? I think a flush draw/67 would raise you on the flop +90% of the time. Not many hands I can think of that have more than 2-5 outs.

I also thought it may get him to fold some weaker Ax hands.

I would be VERY surprised to see him fold any Ace here since his hand is underrepped by his flop call.

So
- you won't get better hands to fold very often (KK perhaps?)
- rarely will you get value from worse
- I don't think your hands needs to be protected that much

Therefore I think a check is superior. If he bets probably get it in (since he will be turning his hand into a bluff/floating you from time to time). If he checks behind I'd bet whatever you feel might look like a bluff in his eyes (pot sized bet?, maybe more) on almost any river (very unlikely he checks behind w/ an Ace on this turn and he knows this so you can get value by betting big).

I think checking here puts us in a very tough spot, I'd rather bet =(

if you wanna put your stack in I prefer c/shoving tbh, allows him to commit with draws/weaker holdings

On April 25 2008 15:38 Fayth wrote: I think checking here puts us in a very tough spot, I'd rather bet =(

The range that beats us is gonna bet the turn almost always when checked to. It also almost always going to raise our bet.

If we bet we commits ourselves vs that range.

The main difference between betting this turn and check raising it is that by checking we are allowing him to bet the range that we beat. And like I said if we have him beat and he has outs it's rarely going to be more than 5.

I don't see poopers flatting this flop with sets much, but I can see him flatting with flushdraws (not combodraws), 67, gutshots, gutshots with 2 hearts, 5xhh. So I do think my hand has a lot of hands to protect against.
He may not fold any Ax hands but he might. Would you feel comfortable getting allin on the turn here without any crazy history with AJ or worse? b/c in his mind my range is fairly polarized on the turn to hands that crush AJ (he has 3 outs or no outs at all) or draws, and he probably doesn't expect a draw as weak as KQ. I agree I will pretty much never get value from worse, that wasn't the point of the bet.

If we have a clear plan for the later streets I think checking would be better, but since I have no idea what to do if I check and poopers bets the turn or the river on any card i'm pretty lost. I don't really know whats better but I think you are trivializing protecting our hand, which is pretty important to me.

I also don't think poopers is always betting this turn when we check, and when he does bet it there is a chance its an all in bet or a committing bet

i like to just bomb this turn and then wow/wtf/uhhh? if he shoves

Would you feel comfortable getting allin on the turn here without any crazy history with AJ or worse?

I wouldn't be super happy about it, but I don't think I would have a choice after a flop call.

b/c in his mind my range is fairly polarized on the turn to hands that crush AJ (he has 3 outs or no outs at all) or draws, and he probably doesn't expect a draw as weak as KQ.

I think bluffs/made hands turned into bluffs will be a large portion of your range as well after he just checks the flop.

If we have a clear plan for the later streets I think checking would be better, but since I have no idea what to do if I check and poopers bets the turn or the river on any card i'm pretty lost.

I think if he checks the turn behind you have him beat almost always. If he bets the turn go with your read.

I don't really know whats better but I think you are trivializing protecting our hand, which is pretty important to me.

I don't think I'm trivializing I'm just assigning a different range of his hands based on his actions. If we had a similar range in mind my guess is you'd agree with me.

and yeah i am 100% in line with your reasoning here. basically a big protection bet on the turn. alternatively sometimes i bet like 60% pot here planning to call a shove if i think somebody is a bit feisty

i dunno i hate it. if u havent been getting out of line much theres not too much to protect here w/ 2nd pair no drwa

i hate this

unless you are doing this for the sole purpose of trying to bluff out AJ AT

On April 26 2008 00:03 Daut wrote: unless you are doing this for the sole purpose of trying to bluff out AJ AT

read my post u monkey

oh nice, feel the same way, just read the op and was like WAT and posted that

If were not folding out an ace, theres really no good reason to bet. Even if we make mistakes all the time after we check it will still be better.

your easiest way to play this hand makes it even more easy for him to outplay u