KK vs Empire 2000 10/20 turn c/raise AI

Haven't seen many hands going up lately so I thought I would post this one just to see what others think about this spot.

Submitted by : ukfan81

PokerStars Game #16776578790: Hold'em No Limit ($10/$20) - 2008/04/16 - 16:07:36 (ET)
Table 'Halaesus III' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Trop Poker ($987.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Empire2000 ($2067 in chips)
Seat 3: ukfan81 ($1970 in chips)
Seat 4: traveller ($1055 in chips)
Seat 5: LittleZen ($400 in chips)
Seat 6: morello05 ($330 in chips)
Seat 7: Kelisitaan ($2616 in chips)
Seat 8: venkanto ($400 in chips)
Seat 9: SobraoBoY ($2724 in chips)
morello05: posts small blind $10
Kelisitaan: posts big blind $20

Holecards
Dealt to ukfan81
venkanto: folds
SobraoBoY: folds
Trop Poker: folds
Empire2000: raises $40 to $60
ukfan81 : raises $120 to $180
traveller: folds
LittleZen: folds
morello05: folds
Kelisitaan: folds
Empire2000: calls $120

Flop (Pot : $390.00)

   
Empire2000: checks
ukfan81 : bets $200
Empire2000: calls $200

Turn (Pot : $790.00)

   
Empire2000: checks
ukfan81 : bets $600
Empire2000: raises $1087 to $1687 and is all-in

I don't see how you're ever folding this after you bet this turn...unless empire2000 is a monster nit and never value betting worse.

perhaps you could share a bit of your thought process or reads or something?

I don't have much of a history with villian. I know he is a strong player and that is about it. I haven't been at the table long enough to have seen him get out of line or anything. I feel my line is pretty strong here. I did bet the flop pretty weak but I was actually expecting a raise that i was gonna shove over the top of. So when he check raises AI on the turn the only real hand I see him playing this way is JJ and maybe 77 since I only bet 1/2 pot on the flop.

he probably has you beat but you should call anyways

and bet the flop a lot bigger...

If i bet flop harder ..........can i get value from a hand like AJ,KJ? I would think not since i showed strength preflop. What do you think PoorUser?

On April 17 2008 13:41 ukfan81 wrote: If i bet flop harder ..........can i get value from a hand like AJ,KJ? I would think not since i showed strength preflop. What do you think PoorUser?

why would he call with AJ KJ preflop if he is not intending to play a J22 board?.

i would think that if your betting 200 for value on dry flops with kk and 340 on the same flop with ak your going to have a very tough time playing against anybody with a clue

you have to follow through your cbets the same amount every time (or at least the same amount on the same boards with respect to position) or people will rape you

Whoops didn't read all the posts my bad!

On April 17 2008 13:02 PoorUser wrote: and bet the flop a lot bigger...

Without a lot of history this is an extremely bad board to shove as a value-bet with QQ or less, or to bluff. I think you can respect Empire enough to make a fold here.

I dont fold here to Empire2000 anyone

You can't fold after betting the turn. Getting 3:1 it's a call unless for some reason you can remove QQ from his range.

Board: Jc 2d 2h 7s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.229% 63.74% 02.51% 152664 6009.00 { JJ+, 77, 22 }
Hand 1: 33.772% 31.28% 02.51% 74909 6009.50 { KdKs }

PoorUser.....I understand you are a well respected player on the site, but nothing you just said makes any sense. I guess you are referring to the other hand i posted with AK. There are several differneces in these hands. 1. The flops are very different 2. With AK I am OOP and w/ KK I am IP. A continuation bet was made w/ KK and not with AK. Look back and see AK was check-raised on turn which would be the same line taken with a set on that board. Also if you make standard cbet everytime......is your range balanced? Please stop leaving comments geared towards trying to get someone to play horrible. That hustle has long been broke!

Submitted by : ukfan81

ukfan81: calls $990 and is all-in
*** RIVER ***
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Empire2000: shows two pair, Jacks and Deuces
ukfan81: shows two pair, Kings and Deuces
ukfan81 collected $3967 from pot

On April 17 2008 20:50 ukfan81 wrote: PoorUser.....I understand you are a well respected player on the site, but nothing you just said makes any sense. I guess you are referring to the other hand i posted with AK. There are several differneces in these hands. 1. The flops are very different 2. With AK I am OOP and w/ KK I am IP. A continuation bet was made w/ KK and not with AK. Look back and see AK was check-raised on turn which would be the same line taken with a set on that board. Also if you make standard cbet everytime......is your range balanced? Please stop leaving comments geared towards trying to get someone to play horrible. That hustle has long been broke!

lol?

Hes clearly trying to help you... pretty obv you need to bet flop bigger.

Why overbet flop and turn hand face up aginst a good player. As played hand is underepped and he tries to make a move with a marginal hand. If he raises the flop bet I am overshoving and just getting coolered by JJ if it turns out to be the case. As far as helping goes....he has flamed every post I have made.

um, snap call plz

fold n go play pennies

On April 17 2008 21:04 ukfan81 wrote: he has flamed every post I have made.

dude, pooruser is seriously not flaming you. i can understand if you feel that his tone is coming off kinda harsh, but he's providing reasoning and arguing (sensibly) that he thinks you are playing in a manner that will get you in trouble.

disagreeing with your play, yes. harshly? maybe. flaming you, no.

he is trying to help, whether it's working or not. give the internet a break...so much humanity is lost in this html world

and by the way, if you think betting 340 won't get a call from a jack on a J22 flop, i guarantee you are mistaken

On April 17 2008 20:50 ukfan81 wrote: PoorUser.....I understand you are a well respected player on the site, but nothing you just said makes any sense. I guess you are referring to the other hand i posted with AK. There are several differneces in these hands. 1. The flops are very different 2. With AK I am OOP and w/ KK I am IP. A continuation bet was made w/ KK and not with AK. Look back and see AK was check-raised on turn which would be the same line taken with a set on that board. Also if you make standard cbet everytime......is your range balanced? Please stop leaving comments geared towards trying to get someone to play horrible. That hustle has long been broke!

wat

the only thing i can tell from that blog paragraph of yours is that when you 3b, you look at your hand, and then the flop, and then you look back at your hand, and then you make a bet...and thats terrible. .. i feel like saying what i have should be taken seriously since i will be playing with you and im not leveling you...

On April 18 2008 01:21 [vital]Myth wrote: give the internet a break...so much humanity is lost in this html world

lol
sig material

I knew it, PoorUser was leveling us all the time to make us play bad, sick hustle!.

The creation of this thread + the fact that OP thinks AJ folds to a normal c-bet on that flop makes me wonder how on earth he got to 2knl in the first place.

340 would get a call IMO from AJ but i felt Empire 2000 is a good enough player to realize when he was raised from utg +1 that AA KK could be in my range. I chose to bet 1/2 pot to,1. Hopefully induce a raise by looking weak, 2. Get value from any medium pair like 88,99,1010. Maybe this is a way that will get me in trouble....I don't know.I didn't post the hand history because I wasn't sure what to do. It was posted to pick the brain of the better players on here and see what they would do in this spot.

Whats really sick is I got to 2k in 6 weeks.

On April 17 2008 16:39 NMcNasty wrote: Without a lot of history this is an extremely bad board to shove as a value-bet with QQ or less, or to bluff. I think you can respect Empire enough to make a fold here.

or not, lol

Generally I would fold in that spot but given I played the flop so weak I felt he was shoving top pair or medium pair. If I bet the flop hard ($340, since that is the bet the "pro's" like) and he calls, then check raises all-in on turn I am in a much more difficult spot and probably get blown off the hand. Because given the strength of my line that would be a pretty rockin' bluff.

On April 18 2008 02:34 PoorUser wrote: the only thing i can tell from that blog paragraph of yours is that when you 3b, you look at your hand, and then the flop, and then you look back at your hand, and then you make a bet...and thats terrible. .. i feel like saying what i have should be taken seriously since i will be playing with you and im not leveling you...

Advice has been taking seriously sir. I really like your thought process in many of the HH I have read over. I'm just not laying down to the fact that check raising the turn against Keli is that bad of a line. After all he floats around 95% of the time waiting to steal. The only part I really disagree with in your thoughts about the 2HH i posted yesterday is that you say I am wrong for not cbetting witk AK on a dry flop. Normally I do, especially if i feel there is at least a 50% chance the villian may fold. Against Keli I know he is calling if not raising that flop because it is dry and I did look squeezy. So I feel my mandatory cbet would be a mandatory raise from Keli. I guess my style is very different from yours and many others. I don't play 27,15,2 and try to minimize variance by playing a little more conservative as opposed to being super agressive. No question in my mind that you are a good player so when I disagree put me in line with the facts of what is best play and why. I can definitely respect that.

countdown to ukfan81 = busto???

over / under anybody?

On April 17 2008 13:41 ukfan81 wrote: If i bet flop harder ..........can i get value from a hand like AJ,KJ? I would think not since i showed strength preflop. What do you think PoorUser?

HOW CAN YOU MAKE A POST LIKE THIS AND BE PLAYING 10 20

LOL

FUCK MY LIFE

he posted his april graph and he's up like 8k, he must be ridiculously underrolled if he plays 10/20, prob 0 br management, and he doesn't seem like a very experienced player

so is this thread supposed to be a brag since you obv think your play is 100% best and no one is changing your mind or what?

i think ukfan81 will go busto but then win a big tourney and be insta br'ed and last another few months

i think its like 95% at least

OP: you think empire is "making a move" when shoving AJ on that turn? LOL?

It's definitely not a brag.......was just wanting to see if any better players thought that was a spot to fold in aginst Empire 2000. As I don't see him making a mistake like that. My thoughts in this hand may be wrong but no one has shown any better line nor given reason behind betting the flop harder. If it's the "only" right play then state the reason. Don't just say "bet flop harder" Back it up with logic and reasoning as to why.

i would think that the reasoning for betting the flop harder is pretty obvious and something that was assumed.

btw, "I chose to bet 1/2 pot to,1. Hopefully induce a raise by looking weak, 2. Get value from any medium pair like 88,99,1010."

that works sometimes against weak players. not against very competent players like empire

On April 19 2008 10:09 ukfan81 wrote: blahblah argument want

three words:

balancing hand ranges

I really thought Empire would raise this flop and then I could get it all in. Damn I had to wait untiil the turn to get it in......Ooops!

this thread makes me smile.