KK vs Empire 2000 10/20 turn c/raise AI

Haven't seen many hands going up lately so I thought I would post this one just to see what others think about this spot.

Submitted by : ukfan81

PokerStars Game #16776578790: Hold'em No Limit ($10/$20) - 2008/04/16 - 16:07:36 (ET)
Table 'Halaesus III' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Trop Poker ($987.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Empire2000 ($2067 in chips)
Seat 3: ukfan81 ($1970 in chips)
Seat 4: traveller ($1055 in chips)
Seat 5: LittleZen ($400 in chips)
Seat 6: morello05 ($330 in chips)
Seat 7: Kelisitaan ($2616 in chips)
Seat 8: venkanto ($400 in chips)
Seat 9: SobraoBoY ($2724 in chips)
morello05: posts small blind $10
Kelisitaan: posts big blind $20

Holecards
Dealt to ukfan81
venkanto: folds
SobraoBoY: folds
Trop Poker: folds
Empire2000: raises $40 to $60
ukfan81 : raises $120 to $180
traveller: folds
LittleZen: folds
morello05: folds
Kelisitaan: folds
Empire2000: calls $120

Flop (Pot : $390.00)

   
Empire2000: checks
ukfan81 : bets $200
Empire2000: calls $200

Turn (Pot : $790.00)

   
Empire2000: checks
ukfan81 : bets $600
Empire2000: raises $1087 to $1687 and is all-in

I don't see how you're ever folding this after you bet this turn...unless empire2000 is a monster nit and never value betting worse.

perhaps you could share a bit of your thought process or reads or something?

I don't have much of a history with villian. I know he is a strong player and that is about it. I haven't been at the table long enough to have seen him get out of line or anything. I feel my line is pretty strong here. I did bet the flop pretty weak but I was actually expecting a raise that i was gonna shove over the top of. So when he check raises AI on the turn the only real hand I see him playing this way is JJ and maybe 77 since I only bet 1/2 pot on the flop.

he probably has you beat but you should call anyways

and bet the flop a lot bigger...

If i bet flop harder ..........can i get value from a hand like AJ,KJ? I would think not since i showed strength preflop. What do you think PoorUser?

On April 17 2008 13:41 ukfan81 wrote: If i bet flop harder ..........can i get value from a hand like AJ,KJ? I would think not since i showed strength preflop. What do you think PoorUser?

why would he call with AJ KJ preflop if he is not intending to play a J22 board?.

i would think that if your betting 200 for value on dry flops with kk and 340 on the same flop with ak your going to have a very tough time playing against anybody with a clue

you have to follow through your cbets the same amount every time (or at least the same amount on the same boards with respect to position) or people will rape you

Whoops didn't read all the posts my bad!

On April 17 2008 13:02 PoorUser wrote: and bet the flop a lot bigger...

Without a lot of history this is an extremely bad board to shove as a value-bet with QQ or less, or to bluff. I think you can respect Empire enough to make a fold here.

I dont fold here to Empire2000 anyone

You can't fold after betting the turn. Getting 3:1 it's a call unless for some reason you can remove QQ from his range.

Board: Jc 2d 2h 7s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.229% 63.74% 02.51% 152664 6009.00 { JJ+, 77, 22 }
Hand 1: 33.772% 31.28% 02.51% 74909 6009.50 { KdKs }

PoorUser.....I understand you are a well respected player on the site, but nothing you just said makes any sense. I guess you are referring to the other hand i posted with AK. There are several differneces in these hands. 1. The flops are very different 2. With AK I am OOP and w/ KK I am IP. A continuation bet was made w/ KK and not with AK. Look back and see AK was check-raised on turn which would be the same line taken with a set on that board. Also if you make standard cbet everytime......is your range balanced? Please stop leaving comments geared towards trying to get someone to play horrible. That hustle has long been broke!

Submitted by : ukfan81

ukfan81: calls $990 and is all-in
*** RIVER ***
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Empire2000: shows two pair, Jacks and Deuces
ukfan81: shows two pair, Kings and Deuces
ukfan81 collected $3967 from pot

On April 17 2008 20:50 ukfan81 wrote: PoorUser.....I understand you are a well respected player on the site, but nothing you just said makes any sense. I guess you are referring to the other hand i posted with AK. There are several differneces in these hands. 1. The flops are very different 2. With AK I am OOP and w/ KK I am IP. A continuation bet was made w/ KK and not with AK. Look back and see AK was check-raised on turn which would be the same line taken with a set on that board. Also if you make standard cbet everytime......is your range balanced? Please stop leaving comments geared towards trying to get someone to play horrible. That hustle has long been broke!

lol?

Hes clearly trying to help you... pretty obv you need to bet flop bigger.

Why overbet flop and turn hand face up aginst a good player. As played hand is underepped and he tries to make a move with a marginal hand. If he raises the flop bet I am overshoving and just getting coolered by JJ if it turns out to be the case. As far as helping goes....he has flamed every post I have made.

um, snap call plz

fold n go play pennies

On April 17 2008 21:04 ukfan81 wrote: he has flamed every post I have made.

dude, pooruser is seriously not flaming you. i can understand if you feel that his tone is coming off kinda harsh, but he's providing reasoning and arguing (sensibly) that he thinks you are playing in a manner that will get you in trouble.

disagreeing with your play, yes. harshly? maybe. flaming you, no.

he is trying to help, whether it's working or not. give the internet a break...so much humanity is lost in this html world

and by the way, if you think betting 340 won't get a call from a jack on a J22 flop, i guarantee you are mistaken