Ethics: Exposed Cards

I was just watching the latest PAD when a situation came up that made me think of a game I was playing in a about a year ago. The situation was that Antonino could see the cards of the player on his left (Eli Elezra) and he vocalized his dilemma with the table as well as warning Eli that he could see his cards if he chose to do so. Howard Lederer then made a comment something along the lines of "well, you've done exactly what you are required to do by letting him know you can see his cards. He is a professional and if he choses not to rectify the problem then you are doing no wrong by looking."

I thought it was pretty good of Antonino to do so, but at the same time I thought it was expected of him. I mean, they are both named pros and it's being aired on TV so he should probably speak up about it for a variety of reasons. Mainly for the integrity of the game.

This reminded me of a situation of a live 2-5 NL game I was playing in roughly a year ago where I could see the cards of the player to my right. He was obviously very drunk, playing quite loose and very very poorly. In the beginning I was sort of shocked I could literally see every hand from this guy. Then I leaned towards telling the guy, and I was genuinely starting to feel bad for the guy. (He was making pretty retarded bluffs every hand, wondering why he was always getting called, not getting value from his big hands..etc) I decided to go for a cigarette with a friend of mine who was also playing in the game and talked to him about what I should do. After thinking for a while I decided it was his own mistake for exposing his cards, not protecting himself, and I was just lucky to be sitting in the perfect seat.


Poll: What should I have done?
(Vote): Politely tell him I could see his cards, once.
(Vote): Insist that he protect his hand if he keeps it up.
(Vote): Take full advantage.
(Vote): Move seats.
(Vote):
(Vote):


Poll: Would it make a difference if he was a regular
(Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote):

give them nothing, but take from them.. everything.

I guess depends on how much the money means to you but personally I'd just tell him once and then take full advantage if it continues.

edit: and no it doesn't matter if it's a reg or not. I'd apply the same to both

I'd tell them... mainly because if you got caught peaking at the persons cards and they were a crazy enough person, they'd probably fuck your shit up

cheat mode ON

gogogogogogogogo

Telling them is simply your own choice, you obviously don't have to. I'm pissed off that I'm pretty sure I always would say something (and have before).

Once ages ago when I was a total newbie at the casino, a guy told me really early on that he could sometimes see my cards. Then I stacked him.

u gotta tell them at least once imo

what the FUCK? NEVER tell somebody you can see his cards at your table. ESPECIALLY if he's drunk and to your right. seriously you must hate money AND be retarded to think that you should tell him. of course it doesn't make a difference if he's a regular.

seriously, like...if you try to fold your hand face down but you accidentally flip it up, then that's just part of the game and you pay for your own retardation. or if you accidentally muck the best hand, then once again you're paying for your own retardation. if you don't properly shield your hole cards, that's no different. it's your own fault and you will pay dearly for it, and you should.

btw it's really common to be able to see the hole cards of somebody next to you. i have sat with somebody to my left or right who exposed his hole cards to me probably 15 times in my life. and like 9 or 10 of my most profitable sessions were among those 15

On March 28 2008 04:45 kimseongchan wrote: give them nothing, but take from them.. everything.

nit

if it's a tourney tell him... if it's some small stakes cash game, fuck it...

i know what your saying myth and maybe its fine but i would feel kinda obligated to warn someone about it tho T_T

lol @ feelings in poker

wait wtf this is legal

it hapened to me once i had some fish who would kinda expose his cards but i thought it was kinda illegal to focus on looking at his cards

so i just didnt pay attention to it (and even then i think i still saw his cards from time to time on accident)

On March 28 2008 05:41 [vital]Myth wrote: what the FUCK? NEVER tell somebody you can see his cards at your table. ESPECIALLY if he's drunk and to your right. seriously you must hate money AND be retarded to think that you should tell him. of course it doesn't make a difference if he's a regular. seriously, like...if you try to fold your hand face down but you accidentally flip it up, then that's just part of the game and you pay for your own retardation. or if you accidentally muck the best hand, then once again you're paying for your own retardation. if you don't properly shield your hole cards, that's no different. it's your own fault and you will pay dearly for it, and you should.

if thats how you think then karma is going to crawl up and bite you in the ass one day

every single time i even think i could catch a whiff of seeing the persons cards next to me i let them know to be more careful when they check their cards

yesterday we got to the river checked down in a pot that i riased to 50 and got called by the button on 5 10, 115 in pot. weird board i had eight high i flipped my hand over I HAVE THE EIGHT...chinese guy kept staring at my hand i kept saying eight high I HAVE THE EIGHT EIGHT HIGH...then finally he mucked

person next to the chink said he showed bottom pair, and the german faggot to my right smiled at me and was like hahaha nice dan he just mucked the winning hand, nh..then the chinese guy was like FUCKKKK

i immediately threw 50$ to the chinese guy

dealer, chinese guy, and the other 6 nits at the table (elky was only other one) stare in disbelieve at what i just did

nits are like wow you are so nice, chinese guy was like ok thank u thank u thank u u real man i keep this aside incase i win big i multiply it and give it to u chinese custom (of course he ended up going broke so some nit got my money)...but still its hte principle

you fucking faggot nits trying to get every edge you can, i will fucking kill you, if i ever see one of you able to see someones cards next to u and u dont say a word i will get up and smack your fucking face then step on your fucking skull

ur fkn wrong dude

Poll: Whos right?
(Vote): Myth obv
(Vote): Myth i think, not sure
(Vote): Rekrul i think, not sure
(Vote): Rekrul obv
(Vote): i can't answer polls because i'm retarded

[vital]Myth says:
i actually wonder if there's a written rule about being able to see someone's cards
[vital]Myth says:
bc like
[vital]Myth says:
your example of the guy mucking the winning hand
[vital]Myth says:
rules clearly state
[vital]Myth says:
that in that situation
[vital]Myth says:
you win the pot

life isnt about rules

if a hired killa fucking breaks your skull unnoticed with no evidence because the wrong guy got mad about you continually seeing other ppls cards and saying nothing, even though law dictates that he should indeed go to jail, he will walk free to break more skulls because he did it good and clean and didnt get caught

even though im trying to prove your own point wrong with your own point, bleh i hope you get the point

another epic poll from floofy

rofl rek rage

It's just a matter of morals...

I personally would tell a person if i could see their cards, as this would make me uncomfortable.

Sure its like refusing free money, but its kinda like if you saw a wallet somewhere, some ppl would take the money and chuck the wallet, and some would actually turn it in.

im also curious what the real rule is. if this is perfectly legal then, in theory, some people are probably attempting to look at your cards, and you might do a mistake from time to time. therefore if you don't do it yourself, you are getting fucked

dont do a mistake floofy

hide your cards well and pretend like u have the nuts every hand, for now its ur only shot

I think I would look at the player's cards in the most obvious way possible until he/she got the point (like leaning over obvious). If they were still stupid enough to not do anything about it then they deserve to lose.

then id ask u if u were funny and before u could answer ur skull would be stomped

You make a mistake at a poker table, you (usually, stupid bad beats ;() lose money. I'd be exploiting this.

i love live poker

half the players at the table are always nit losers who play every day and think they are cool and know everything

meanwhile i straddle and bomb the pot every hand ever street and tell them they are nit faggots and take all the money while being gracious, courteous, and pleasant to the fishes

ez game

we do play poker to make money

but life is not all about that

i still am confused as to why cocktail waitresses freak the fuck out when i tip them 5$ after they give me a water...cant you see im stuck 10k what the fuck does 5$ more matter if i can make one person happy i will

On March 28 2008 06:58 Rekrul wrote: we do play poker to make money but life is not all about that i still am confused as to why cocktail waitresses freak the fuck out when i tip them 5$ after they give me a water...cant you see im stuck 10k what the fuck does 5$ more matter if i can make one person happy i will

gentleman... but there is no friendship in poker

Well it might be legal but it still aint ethical.I mean wtf dont telll me this BS "no feelings/ethics etc etc BS in poker".You should be thinking sober and shouldnt be that egoistic if u wanna be good at something u gotta own people at their best play.I dont see how are u beating someone at their best while u r watching their hole cards.Think about it its just like POTRIPPER in UB ?You r not playing correctly nor thinking correctly its just like stealing money from someone.Dont even try to prove me wrong.Yes the concept of the game is to get as much as money possible from ur opponents but that doesnt mean that u must break all moral and ethical barriers to do so.Seriously i have a lot of respect for u myth but i just cant agree with u on this and i think u should really think about this.

@znb that doesnt mean that he s ur friend wtf.You shouldnt be telling him that u can see his hole cards just for him but for urself also.

I'm with Rek on this one.

I actually think if you don't tell them you're pretty pathetic. You have no obligation to tell them after the first time that session because then they're just being negligent but I dislike people who take advantage of stuff like this. You're playing poker. You aren't supposed to see their cards. He's obviously not trying to show them to you and is making an honest mistake in doing so. He's not going to know he's doing it unless somebody tells him. This isn't him misplaying top pair or overplaying a hand. This is him tilting his fucking cards the wrong way. Play poker. It's not about every edge, every win, every dollar. There is room for ethics and integrity in this game. In life too.

To be honest, my respect level for Myth just went way down.

I would tell them for sure.

And yes it matters if they are regulars or not.
Regulars should know how to look at their cards so screw them.

I def tell the guy if I can see his hole cards...

Other question: it happened to me about 1 month ago during a cash game that we went to river showdown, 3ways.
I had AQ on a board AQT6K.
The players were pretty loose so they all check/call me till river and i obv checked down after the 2 others checked the river with that board.
Then that thing happened: The first guy mucked and then the 2nd guy said "straight" but did not flip the cards over.
But I still flipped my cards after him, showing the 2 pairs even though I thought the other guy had the straight.
And the guy that claimed to have the straight actually said that he did not have the straight after I flipped my 2 pairs. So i had the winning hand.

The question I was wondering is: if for example, I would have mucked my hand after the guy claimed to have a straight. and it happens that after I muck he flips over his hand and that he doesnt have the straight. Can I claim the pot?
I know it is a bit dumb to ask because obv if he claims to have a certain hand, we expect him to show first then muck. But it was in the flow of the game and then when he said "straight" on that board, nobody expected him to lie.

yeah i'd let him know
if he didn't fix it then i'd consciously avoid looking at his cards

i would explain why but basically i agree with rek and freak
i'll just add it's strictly a moral choice for me, so in that sense i have no problem with myth's attitude, just different morals.

it wouldnt occur to me to keep this to myself

After having met rekrul, his posts are way funnier for some reason. Dan likes to have a good time at the table, event hat old korean dude liked you, but you scared him away ha.

it would depend if i like or dislike the person, or if it provokes me sympathy or not.

the rule is to be human

either u think
#1 looking at his cards is ethical and legal
#2 looking at his cards is unethical and legal
#3 looking at his cards is unethical and illegal

everyone who think #1 should be looking at the guy's card no matter how sympathic he is
everyone who think #3 shouldn't be looking at the guy's card no matter how much of an asshole he is

if you think #2, then, i think you shouldnt do something you think is unethical, even if the other person isn't sympathic

On March 28 2008 08:58 Baal wrote: it would depend if i like or dislike the person, or if it provokes me sympathy or not.

for sure
why would anyone be kind to an asshole
I'd obv tell the drunk guy,it would be like stealing from a retarded kid

I usually tell people when I can see their cards, but then again I do not go and play for serious money, when I play live poker its more to have a good time and get my drink on, and also i've gotten pretty drunk at the table and I've had people tell me they were able to see a card here and there, so it would be pretty dickhead of me to exploit others.

I would tell them as you also avoid grudges and bad atmosphere after they find out. You dont want the fish disliking you and not giving you action.

WTF, of course you tell him.
I don't care if he is a friend, a drunk fish or a regular I don't like.

I remember a while ago I got involved in a 3bet pot with another one of the regulars at my home game who was a friend of mine (not good friend but friend) who was on my direct left, I rivered trips and he insta-mucked AK face-up to my river bet on a TA35T board. I stared at him like are you fucking kidding me?

He told me after the hand that he saw me look at my hand pre-flop...

You always tell people. Now I don't blame him for using it against me one hand, he had already raised and I was just stupid at looking at my cards with beer in hand, but you always tell people.

I don't know about some people, but if I won multiple hands from someone because I could see their cards, I would not feel good at all about winning money. People being on tilt or drunk is one thing, but this is different.

eh, i would definitely look unless the stakes were very low and it didn't matter to me.

Anyways, on a side note, i was playing at the borgata 5/10 and there was a drunk degen gambler to my right with like 7k in front of him when i sat down and i could see his cards like every other hand, so i would look when he flipped them very high and other wise not bc i didn't have sunglasses or w/e because that's pretty lame...anyways, floorman behind me taps me on the shoulder and when I turn around to see what he wants he's like "thanks." I guess he noticed that I was looking and it's frowned upon. I was going to discuss it with him and ask him if there's any kind of rule or if it's just all on the guy showing the cards, but he walked away right after that. That being said, if someone is retarded enough to show their cards, it's time to reraise iso them EVERY single time that they raise a pot until they get the hint that they're doing something wrong or lose all their money. The timing is all on them.

On March 28 2008 09:35 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2008 08:58 Baal wrote: it would depend if i like or dislike the person, or if it provokes me sympathy or not. why would anyone be kind to an asshole

Because somebody else's lack of good character doesn't give you an excuse to be similar.

On March 28 2008 10:34 thewh00sel wrote: eh, i would definitely look unless the stakes were very low and it didn't matter to me. Anyways, on a side note, i was playing at the borgata 5/10 and there was a drunk degen gambler to my right with like 7k in front of him when i sat down and i could see his cards like every other hand, so i would look when he flipped them very high and other wise not bc i didn't have sunglasses or w/e because that's pretty lame...anyways, floorman behind me taps me on the shoulder and when I turn around to see what he wants he's like "thanks." I guess he noticed that I was looking and it's frowned upon. I was going to discuss it with him and ask him if there's any kind of rule or if it's just all on the guy showing the cards, but he walked away right after that. That being said, if someone is retarded enough to show their cards, it's time to reraise iso them EVERY single time that they raise a pot until they get the hint that they're doing something wrong or lose all their money. The timing is all on them.

I can see how accidentally showing people your hole cards in a poker game directly translates to stupidity. I hope you use such fool proof standards to judge all aspects of people's character.

I suppose it's a little much to ask of people to show a little integrity. It's such a difficult thing to do.

It's really a matter of integrity, myth seems to lack that haha

Theres plenty of people I met in live games that Id simply exploit it against them. But those are only players that use absurd house rules to gain a little more edge against others , against those id have no doubts.

Against any other Id tell them and/or show them proper way so that they can hide their cards. I just wouldnt feel comfortable having that kind of advantage and I dont consider holding your cards part of your poker skill.

i wish to play some live poker with all these people that say that ''hit n run is ok, its poker you know'' , ''exploit someone who is drunk and exposing your cards''. youll get your asses handed to you one day when youll expect it less, and learn what life is really about, good old fashion ass whopping, to put all you cocky inet players back in your place yo. seriously, i didnt even know there where that many people that wouldnt tell someone that they can see their cards. thats just ridic

I think do whatever you feel is right. If you consider correct to punish someone for the mistake, then go ahead do it and feel good.
For me it would be right to tell the guy, I simply wouldnt feel good about it. When you can see your opponents cards, then the game basically loses its purpose, its fun. I dont play poker just to make the most money I can, I play it because I enjoy it and I try to be as good as possible at it.

i dont tell them, but i dont look either

what are your thoughts on the person who used POTRIPPER myth? Do u think hes an asshole or someone who took the edge presented to him to maximize his profit?

Depends on the person showing their cards probably. If they were some complete and utter faggot constantly talking shit I may take advantage, but to the vast majority of people I'd let them know. I'm really not for the idea of taking advantage in spots like these, but against some people they just kinda deserve it and they get a big "fuck you".

If I can see someone's hole cards I tell them. I don't think it's ethical to be able to see someone's cards and not let them know. If you think it's correct to keep playing while seeing someone's cards, you can also make a similar argument that collusion is fine as well. Poker isn't suppose to be played by taking advantage of things like this.

If they continue to flash their cards to me after I've told them I could see their cards... well then I'd probably think they are fucking retarded, and don't deserve the money in front of them to begin with. lol...

lol i would tell the person even if i fucking hated their guts

its not about your level of respect for the person, its about your level of respect for urself

Seeing the person to your right hole cards can give you such an unbelievable edge on the game, since you can just isolate him from the rest of the table in every pot he plays and make perfect decisions post flop. But from an EV stand point, it's prolly not good for you or the game in the long run since someone who gets smashed this badly might not want to continue playing in this game, and if they are retarded enough to be flashing cards then they prolly aren't very good to begin with. Don't scare the fish away. Be nice!

two weeks ago actually i had AKo on the button and there was a raise, 3 callers including the guy to my right

he looked at his cards very openly with one hand and i saw his cards

instead of telling him / the table and completely fucking up the hand / flow of the game i mucked my cards then told him that i saw his cards and mucked a big hand cuz of it to not slow down the game

flop drilled KK4 too and i kept saying in my head FUCK MY LIFE FUCK MY LIFE FUCK MY LIFE FUCK MY LIFE

show some manners you little cunt balls




LMAO theres two young kids that i dislike. one of them always berates fishes for how they play their hands without being asked. i always tell him to stfu and the fishes always love me for it and therefore give me action. i hate little faggot kids who think they can 'PUT THE FISH ON TILT' by doing pathetic shit like that. shut ur fking trap shade ball. another kid one hand raised a fish almost allin on the river and the fish thought it was allin so he just flipped over his hand which was the second nuts (king high flush on river) instead of saying call or reraising him allin....the faggot kid then tried to declare the hand dead THATS A DEAD HAND THATS A DEAD HAND THATS A DEAD HAND.....LOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL...the italian fish who is usually the nicest guy in the world went fucking APPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEshit and the kid got soooooo scared and submitted in shame

i love live poker

LOL

you kids and your drugs

YOU'RE A CHEATER VITAL MYTH I HATE YOU

On March 28 2008 12:13 Rekrul wrote: its not about your level of respect for the person, its about your level of respect for urself

lol @ the idea of taking a retard's money purely because of the fact that he's being a retard implying that you don't respect yourself

if i had a gun and i was robbing him because he was "retarded" enough to carry money around without a gun on his person, then fine i can see your point

but seriously -.-a

how can anyone seriously think that it's alright to continue using the information of his exposed cards after you've told him, but it's not exactly the same fucking thing to just not tell him and keep using that info

nobody should have to tell him anything. the fact that he should carefully hide his cards so that nobody can see them has already been told to him by the fact that it's common sense.

at least be consistent if you're gonna have an opinion. if you think you should tell him once then you should be telling him every time.

hmm you make good points
i'll wait to see what rekrul thinks before i decide whether or not i still hate you

i don't know what i'd do if some little kid started to berate me at a table.

i'd have to use all my power to not eat him.

well even if im against what someone does as long as they are in my friend zone i support them like a blind stupid dog as long as what they are doing isnt TOOO bad

lol i just remembered last night after night club i was drunk and loitering in poker room, my friend mike told me about some guy slow rolling the fuck outa him and acting rly gay on 2 5

so i sat down, i was polite and nice and happy then i lost a pot to some girl

the guy made a comment (harmless tho) about how badly i played the hand

HEY YOU SHOULD KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT I DIDNT ASK FOR YOUR FUCKING OPINION

whole table was like wtfffff

live poker = greatest

do for others what u want them to do for you.
if everyone in the world followed this principle it would be a much better world.

i would like to echo rek's assertion that live poker is fucking awesome

wow o_O
respect to rekrul
seriously, i never had good opinion on you, but now...
respect, i would love to have friends like you

On March 28 2008 14:26 HeRoS)eNGagE wrote: wow o_O respect to rekrul seriously, i never had good opinion on you, but now... respect, i would love to have friends like you

ridiculously aggressive and prone to flip out?

if he's going to hand me money im not going to complain

No such ethic in Poker, money comes from the mistakes your opponents do and not protecting your cards is one of them. It will teach him not to play drunk.

On March 28 2008 06:58 Rekrul wrote: we do play poker to make money but life is not all about that i still am confused as to why cocktail waitresses freak the fuck out when i tip them 5$ after they give me a water...cant you see im stuck 10k what the fuck does 5$ more matter if i can make one person happy i will

lol @ ordering water

Tell them once so they hear you, not half assed. If they keep doing it glance when you glance. There's more to worry about at the table than peepin out 2 hole cards. The advantage you get isn't MONUMENTAL.

On March 28 2008 13:37 [vital]Myth wrote: how can anyone seriously think that it's alright to continue using the information of his exposed cards after you've told him, but it's not exactly the same fucking thing to just not tell him and keep using that info nobody should have to tell him anything. the fact that he should carefully hide his cards so that nobody can see them has already been told to him by the fact that it's common sense. at least be consistent if you're gonna have an opinion. if you think you should tell him once then you should be telling him every time.

If they made no effort to change what they were doing, then they don't care and it's fair game.

Otherwise, as long as they made an effort to correct it and were sober, I'd keep telling them as long as I could.


I came to play poker, not to take advantage of some dude who's mechanics at the table aren't top notch. That's not how I want to win.

Just like I'd feel pretty gross taking a pot from somebody after they dropped a high denomination chip in by accident. It's just not how I see myself making money. I want to make money because I play better, not because I'm willing to take advantage of poor mechanics.



Granted, if the person is just super drunk I'd probably give up on telling them but I'd make an effort not to look. I want to play poker as it is supposed to be played.

On March 28 2008 15:06 harryhood wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2008 06:58 Rekrul wrote: we do play poker to make money but life is not all about that i still am confused as to why cocktail waitresses freak the fuck out when i tip them 5$ after they give me a water...cant you see im stuck 10k what the fuck does 5$ more matter if i can make one person happy i will lol @ ordering water Tell them once so they hear you, not half assed. If they keep doing it glance when you glance. There's more to worry about at the table than peepin out 2 hole cards. The advantage you get isn't MONUMENTAL.

I sincerely hope that's sarcasm.

LOL SUP HARRYHOOD

On March 28 2008 15:08 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2008 15:06 harryhood wrote:   On March 28 2008 06:58 Rekrul wrote: we do play poker to make money but life is not all about that i still am confused as to why cocktail waitresses freak the fuck out when i tip them 5$ after they give me a water...cant you see im stuck 10k what the fuck does 5$ more matter if i can make one person happy i will lol @ ordering water Tell them once so they hear you, not half assed. If they keep doing it glance when you glance. There's more to worry about at the table than peepin out 2 hole cards. The advantage you get isn't MONUMENTAL. I sincerely hope that's sarcasm.

I understand that there is an advantage but if the person is on your left the situation will usually play out as you see their hand....you act....they fold. If they want to play a pot with you then you win...even if you lose.

i would look and would not tell them unless it was a friend who i cared more about his friendship than the money i could win.

if it was a homegame or a random person im looking all day. part of the game is covering your cards, if he fails to do so thats his fucking problem im gonna make him WEAR IT

i actually change my mind on this

if someone is stupid enough to not cover their cards THEY ARENT MY FRIEND AND THEY ARE GOING DOWN. NO FRIEND OF MINE IS THIS DUMB.


now if something like i got more money than i deserved in a pot came up i would 100% tell the person he gave me too much and gave him what he was owed. i would never cheat anyone in a manner like that, but if someone doesnt cover their cards, i think they are fair game to get taken to value town

On March 28 2008 10:52 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2008 09:35 lebowski wrote:   On March 28 2008 08:58 Baal wrote: it would depend if i like or dislike the person, or if it provokes me sympathy or not. why would anyone be kind to an asshole Because somebody else's lack of good character doesn't give you an excuse to be similar.

I don't like yelling at ppl but I'd definately yell at someone who's busting my balls
Same thing with having sex with his gf ,etc

There is no golden rule or source from which ethical rules spring;well,ok,unless you're a religious person
That's the reason I can justify treating two different ppl with different philosophy and behavioural patterns
You obviously believe that seeing another person's cards is so "bad" that it should be done to noone.
Well,that's fine,everyone should build his own rules anyway,I just can't see a good reason to think like that myself vs assholes.

Hell,I'd even say to someone that I have a huge tell on him if I liked him.
Oh and obv taking advantage of the mentally handicapped is bad for the species.(ppl playing drunk)

i dunno this a close but me personally my first reaction is to kindly tell the dude that he's being a fucking moron.

shit i've had people tell me that i wasn't covering my hold cards while looking (i'm fucked out out of my mind obv)

I think it's good form to do so. I like to keep the game classy and not a bunch of douches looking for every little edge possible.

god i hate those type of people.

On March 28 2008 06:06 Rekrul wrote: you fucking faggot nits trying to get every edge you can, i will fucking kill you, if i ever see one of you able to see someones cards next to u and u dont say a word i will get up and smack your fucking face then step on your fucking skull

he can do it... he's like almost 7 feet high it's insane...

I would pay $1000 to watch rek at a table if this is how he acts, it's fantastic.

On March 28 2008 16:59 Feiticeira wrote: I would pay $1000 to watch rek at a table if this is how he acts, it's fantastic.

yeah? he would pay you $10k so that he could step on your skull...

On March 28 2008 08:00 BadGoNe wrote: I def tell the guy if I can see his hole cards... Other question: it happened to me about 1 month ago during a cash game that we went to river showdown, 3ways. I had AQ on a board AQT6K. The players were pretty loose so they all check/call me till river and i obv checked down after the 2 others checked the river with that board. Then that thing happened: The first guy mucked and then the 2nd guy said "straight" but did not flip the cards over. But I still flipped my cards after him, showing the 2 pairs even though I thought the other guy had the straight. And the guy that claimed to have the straight actually said that he did not have the straight after I flipped my 2 pairs. So i had the winning hand. The question I was wondering is: if for example, I would have mucked my hand after the guy claimed to have a straight. and it happens that after I muck he flips over his hand and that he doesnt have the straight. Can I claim the pot? I know it is a bit dumb to ask because obv if he claims to have a certain hand, we expect him to show first then muck. But it was in the flow of the game and then when he said "straight" on that board, nobody expected him to lie.

If you muck before he shows his "straight" he wins the pot period, just always ask to see the winning hand and don't be in a rush to muck. Guess it depends on the type of game and how friendly it is but as far as i know rules stipulate (in the live game here at the casino) that he wins if everyone else/you mucks.

On topic: I don't think I'd "lose respect" for anyone who was taking advantage of being able to see someone's hole cards, I wouldn't do it and would warn the guy at least once but I don't think assuming that everyone is going to have the same stance about it is good either.
You could also warn someone the person if you see someone else using it to their advantage..
And if they do think differently to you then that one thing doesn't make them a "faggot" or make them eligible for "skull stomping" lol.

On March 28 2008 15:06 harryhood wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2008 06:58 Rekrul wrote: we do play poker to make money but life is not all about that i still am confused as to why cocktail waitresses freak the fuck out when i tip them 5$ after they give me a water...cant you see im stuck 10k what the fuck does 5$ more matter if i can make one person happy i will lol @ ordering water Tell them once so they hear you, not half assed. If they keep doing it glance when you glance. There's more to worry about at the table than peepin out 2 hole cards. The advantage you get isn't MONUMENTAL.

"OH HAI WELCOME TO MYTHBUSTERS"

-POTRIPPER

1. I'm sure theres plenty of macho douche-captains who get pissed and threaten people when losing legit, should we all just stop playing live poker because of that?

2. Lets say you are playing in a cash game which has a minimum buy-in of five million dollars. You can see the hole cards of the guy to your right who is a complete spew-monkey. This dude is also a billionaire who just plays in this game for kicks. Add to this the absolute guarantee that you would not get caught and your reputation is guaranteed to be safe. There is not a single player on this site who wouldn't try and set themselves up for the rest of their life in this situation. Your "ethical" concerns go right out the window now don't they?

im only crazy when im drunk at the table, in which case im a righteous psychopath

On March 28 2008 15:25 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2008 10:52 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote:   On March 28 2008 09:35 lebowski wrote:   On March 28 2008 08:58 Baal wrote: it would depend if i like or dislike the person, or if it provokes me sympathy or not. why would anyone be kind to an asshole Because somebody else's lack of good character doesn't give you an excuse to be similar. I don't like yelling at ppl but I'd definately yell at someone who's busting my balls Same thing with having sex with his gf ,etc There is no golden rule or source from which ethical rules spring;well,ok,unless you're a religious person That's the reason I can justify treating two different ppl with different philosophy and behavioural patterns You obviously believe that seeing another person's cards is so "bad" that it should be done to noone. Well,that's fine,everyone should build his own rules anyway,I just can't see a good reason to think like that myself vs assholes. Hell,I'd even say to someone that I have a huge tell on him if I liked him. Oh and obv taking advantage of the mentally handicapped is bad for the species.(ppl playing drunk)

I obviously believe what?

I would want to be told if I was accidentally showing my cards to somebody. I do the same for others. It's as simple as that. It has nothing to do with good or bad.

Nobody said anything about not treating them differently. I said somebody being an asshole doesn't give you justification in being an asshole. It accomplishes nothing but a pissing contest. You don't need to be nice to them or give them respect. You treat them like they are an asshole. This can be done without being an asshole yourself.

Pretty much everything I "obviously" believe is this simplistic. I wouldn't waste much energy into looking much deeper than the words I'm saying.

if i was showing my cards then i deserve to lose. concealing your cards while keeping a poker face and watching other players is part of the game and if you cant handle it then you deserve whats coming


plus you have to protect yourself. you cant assume the guy would tell you (and if you KNOW the guy would tell you and you are that friendly with him then i suppose an argument can be made for telling a friend)

I didn't say I'd assume he would tell me. That doesn't matter to me. It's not about them. It's about me and what I would want to have done if I was in that situation. I could care less if people had the same courtesy as I do. I'm not going to lower myself because they are low.

Not to say that I would show my cards very often because I'm careful about that sort of thing. It's still possible, assuming an awkwardly set up table or something.

I'm just saying that IF *I* ever was in a situation where I was unknowingly showing somebody my hole cards, for whatever reason, I'd like to be told.

Granted, if they continued to be negligent after I made the effort, then I've done what I can.

as long as you are consistent with your beliefs

if i would feel hurt by someone not telling me then i have no right to say i wouldnt ever tell someone (well i have that right but im very open to criticism about it)

I don't get it.When you tell someone that you can see his holecards you are being polite.Now why would not being polite to someone I dislike make me an asshole too ? The guy obv makes a huge mistake that he's not supposed to and if I don't help him understand it despite hating his guts I'm suddenly unethical? No way.I'm not cheating him in any way by not treating his stupidity nicely.
I could understand easier an argument concerning my pride vs winning someone I hate in such a manner but this would surely have nothing to do with me doing something wrong.

It has nothing to do with being polite, read my posts.

It would bother me if a FRIEND didnt tell me im exposing my cards, i wouldnt not expect or get mad if somebody could see my cards if i were foolish enough to expose them (not by some flaw of the table cards or anything).

i agree with daut the most in this topic
except i certainly would tell my friends if they exposed their cards

On March 28 2008 19:36 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: It has nothing to do with being polite, read my posts.

nothing in your posts refers to this.
all you say about it is how you would do what you would want others to do to you
and generalise about being an auto-asshole if you don't mention to anyone that you see his cards,or how low such an act is.

The first one is a good rule of thumb in general,but surely you can't expect anyone disliking you to treat you in such a manner, so it has nothing to do with the way you evaluate the act itself. So what is the basis of your negative evaluation for such an act towards another player?
I don't know,so I'm refering to my own reasoning to sort this out;When we reveal to our villain that we see his holecards we do it to create a firm relationship of trust,a gentlemens' game.Politeness leads to a sense of mutual understanding that the game is set fairly and the winner will be determined by skills and luck,pretty much as it serves social cohesion in everyday life situations.

When no intention of politeness or the reasons that induce it is evident,when we have a real asshole sitting next to us,name one good reason that makes the act of not pointing out his stupid mistake to him unethical. It's not like you are maphacking in a bw game btw, because you aren't supposed to maphack,whereas you're supposed to hide your holdings in poker.

I think it really comes down to personal taste vs assholes.

Some want their assholes busto the hard way and some others don't.

edit:this is getting long and I'm getting sleepy

if you want the assholes to go down why do you draw the line with not telling them u can see ur cards

why dont you just stand up pick up your chair and skull fuck them

wuss

i just did 40 pushups in preparation for skull fucking some numbskull in san remo

Take full advantage of it the first time you see the cards, and maybe it costs him a lot of money, maybe not. Either way, tell him after the hand. Let people learn from their mistakes. If he happens to lose a lot of money because of it then after you tell him you saw his hand he will probably never make the same mistake again. It is poker, and in live poker covering up your cards is your responsibility.

Its just my opinion, I mean whats wrong with letting someone learn the hard way about a mistake. When I learn the hard way its always more memorable and effective.

On March 28 2008 20:18 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2008 19:36 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: It has nothing to do with being polite, read my posts. nothing in your posts refers to this. all you say about it is how you would do what you would want others to do to you and generalise about being an auto-asshole if you don't mention to anyone that you see his cards,or how low such an act is. The first one is a good rule of thumb in general,but surely you can't expect anyone disliking you to treat you in such a manner, so it has nothing to do with the way you evaluate the act itself. So what is the basis of your negative evaluation for such an act towards another player? I don't know,so I'm refering to my own reasoning to sort this out;When we reveal to our villain that we see his holecards we do it to create a firm relationship of trust,a gentlemens' game.Politeness leads to a sense of mutual understanding that the game is set fairly and the winner will be determined by skills and luck,pretty much as it serves social cohesion in everyday life situations. When no intention of politeness or the reasons that induce it is evident,when we have a real asshole sitting next to us,name one good reason that makes the act of not pointing out his stupid mistake to him unethical. It's not like you are maphacking in a bw game btw, because you aren't supposed to maphack,whereas you're supposed to hide your holdings in poker. I think it really comes down to personal taste vs assholes. Some want their assholes busto the hard way and some others don't. edit:this is getting long and I'm getting sleepy

I don't care about a relationship of trust. I don't care about a "gentlemen's game". I don't care about politeness. I don't care how other people treat me. I don't care if my opponent is an asshoel or not. I don't care about being nice or polite. None of these things matter.

If I was accidentally showing my cards to somebody, I would want to be told. Whether or not the person is actually going to do so doesn't matter. If it happened, I'd want to know. Since I would want to know, I will tell when I am in the opposite situation. I don't care about the person's character. I don't care who you are. I don't care what you do. I don't care how nice or assholeish you are. I would tell you because I would want the same. I don't expect it, I would want it. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with negative evaluation. The only ethical part of it is not being a hypocrite when it comes to your personal beliefs. It has to do with what I would want out of a situation and what I expect out of myself when I am the opposite in that situation.

I made this clear in my earlier posts but now I'm spelling it out for you. Do you understand now?

On March 28 2008 21:52 Rekrul wrote: if you want the assholes to go down why do you draw the line with not telling them u can see ur cards why dont you just stand up pick up your chair and skull fuck them

REKRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLL!!!!!

myth and daut its a human mistake u act like someone who accidentally shows his cards is guaranteed to be an idiot

and myth if u always make all your decisions in life to maximise EV then you'll end up being a pathetic person, you can't just say "do it cuz it earns money" as an argument we obviously realise that already

i'd tell anyone i can see their cards but i wouldn't go as far as antonio who folded his hand i woulda at least played the hand in that spot and if he wants to 1v1 knowing that i know one of his cards fine if not thats fine too

that's pretty interesting now that i think of it what if you were in the small blind and saw the bb's ace of clubs? after telling him u know he has the ace of clubs i wonder if it's even profitable to raise his bilnd with like 4 8 offsuit i dont think it is

On March 28 2008 23:54 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: Show nested quote + On March 28 2008 20:18 lebowski wrote:   On March 28 2008 19:36 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: It has nothing to do with being polite, read my posts. nothing in your posts refers to this. all you say about it is how you would do what you would want others to do to you and generalise about being an auto-asshole if you don't mention to anyone that you see his cards,or how low such an act is. The first one is a good rule of thumb in general,but surely you can't expect anyone disliking you to treat you in such a manner, so it has nothing to do with the way you evaluate the act itself. So what is the basis of your negative evaluation for such an act towards another player? I don't know,so I'm refering to my own reasoning to sort this out;When we reveal to our villain that we see his holecards we do it to create a firm relationship of trust,a gentlemens' game.Politeness leads to a sense of mutual understanding that the game is set fairly and the winner will be determined by skills and luck,pretty much as it serves social cohesion in everyday life situations. When no intention of politeness or the reasons that induce it is evident,when we have a real asshole sitting next to us,name one good reason that makes the act of not pointing out his stupid mistake to him unethical. It's not like you are maphacking in a bw game btw, because you aren't supposed to maphack,whereas you're supposed to hide your holdings in poker. I think it really comes down to personal taste vs assholes. Some want their assholes busto the hard way and some others don't. edit:this is getting long and I'm getting sleepy I don't care about a relationship of trust. I don't care about a "gentlemen's game". I don't care about politeness. I don't care how other people treat me. I don't care if my opponent is an asshoel or not. I don't care about being nice or polite. None of these things matter. If I was accidentally showing my cards to somebody, I would want to be told. Whether or not the person is actually going to do so doesn't matter. If it happened, I'd want to know. Since I would want to know, I will tell when I am in the opposite situation. I don't care about the person's character. I don't care who you are. I don't care what you do. I don't care how nice or assholeish you are. I would tell you because I would want the same. I don't expect it, I would want it. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with negative evaluation. The only ethical part of it is not being a hypocrite when it comes to your personal beliefs. It has to do with what I would want out of a situation and what I expect out of myself when I am the opposite in that situation. I made this clear in my earlier posts but now I'm spelling it out for you. Do you understand now?

Chill,it's not like you wrote a masterpiece on those posts and I think I understand well what you said. I'm still bothered with the origin of your ethics and the way that you treat it as pretty self evident.I don't say it can't be right,I'm saying it's definately not in an obvious way

It's only hypocrisy if you would like someone to correct one of your silly mistakes and that does depend on who that person is.

I wouldn't expect/like someone I dislike to correct me so thers obv no reason to feel mixed up about my personal beliefs.If it was a friend I would like him to keep the game at a good level so I'd definately feel eager to tell him.

And let me make myself also a bit more clear with an example; if I'm playing bw with a better assholeish opponent I wouldn't want him to point out my silly mistakes,even giving him unknowingly vision of the map. Or if someone I really dislike tells me "OMG I have a huge tell on you LOL", I'd be like "great, now charity from a retard" and would definately feel inclined to leave

So, as you can see,being helpful to someone you dislike is in actuality a form of hostility,it's giving you a higher ground and making you feel good for yourself (or even if it doesn't it puts the asshole in a weaker spot)
F.Nietzsche found the origins of saying "thank you" in the wish for revenge for being weakened by being offered help

That's why I said it boils down to personal taste. Do you want his cash or his humiliation?
Stay quiet or speak it up accordingly,but there's no room for ethical preaching here

Vs a stupid asshole villain I'd go for his cash because he wouldn't have the decency to feel ashamed anyway

of course you tell the person

lifes about not being a faggot

i stfu and take every advantage i get to pay for my crack cocaine addiction

On March 29 2008 06:55 PoorUser wrote: of course you tell the person lifes about not being a faggot

ofc it is :D

and you guys are idiots for saying covering up your cards is part of poker, its not like you have to do it online. its just the only way to play live and if there was another way to play live then you would. but if you guys get off on being the live POTRIPPER then your all fags :[

look at the kid with xray vision preaching to the choir

hypocrite

well straate has his opponents cards set to translucent mode, ethical?

On March 29 2008 07:53 PoorUser wrote: and you guys are idiots for saying covering up your cards is part of poker, its not like you have to do it online. its just the only way to play live and if there was another way to play live then you would. but if you guys get off on being the live POTRIPPER then your all fags :[

well you don't have to have a good pokerface online either

i think most people would maintain that theres a huge difference between the 2

anyways empathize and dont be a faggot

On March 29 2008 08:18 PoorUser wrote: i think most people would maintain that theres a huge difference between the 2 anyways empathize and dont be a faggot

Why would you assume I wouldn't tell?
I'm talking about assholes,which I believe is a different case

i think youre being weak and showing too much concern for people whose money you are trying to take. i think you are making really really bad decisions by telling them what their cards are and its just fucking retarded. not telling them isnt being a faggot. nothing about it is unethical. if he is not covering them up and letting me see he should get what is coming to him. all of what you said doesnt count online IS LIVE POKER. the only legitimate reasons to tell someone that you can see their cards is if you are friends with that person or if telling them would somehow create a more +EV atmosphere for you to play in. if you think trying to make the most money playing poker in a totally legit way is being a faggot then you should probably quit playing online and taking peoples money to begin with.

i cant believe no one mentioned this (i think)

but you wouldnt tell an asshole but u would tell a friend? you realize gaining extra information against that one player and saying nothing about it means you're cheating everyone at the table, not just that guy

what makes you think you deserve to see his cards and they dont?

its not like you are going out of your way to see his cards. if you do that then i agree thats faggotry. but if someone flips up his cards and you see them then thats his own fault and he should pay the consequences for it.

now if a person accidentally pays too much for a pot, if someone drops money off the table and doesnt see it then i think its really asshole-ish to take the money that you dont deserve. those are examples of situations where i think if someone takes the money without saying anything they are an asshole. but here i think its just dumb to not stfu and play your hand. and again, its not like youre going out of your way to see his cards.



you guys know im too nice to actually go through with all of this but i believe in theory i am correct even though i would do otherwise in practice almost always

On March 29 2008 09:40 Skoal wrote: i cant believe no one mentioned this (i think) but you wouldnt tell an asshole but u would tell a friend? you realize gaining extra information against that one player and saying nothing about it means you're cheating everyone at the table, not just that guy what makes you think you deserve to see his cards and they dont?

because you are sitting next to him and exploiting some of your positional advantage.
and i think telling a friend and not telling an asshole cant be considered collusion even though one could argue that you are "softplaying" your friend in a manner because you arent required to tell the person if you see the cards just like you arent required to tell the table if you notice some obvious betting pattern because youre playing pots with a certain person or if you see some tell that you can only see because you are sitting next to someone.

for example i use some leg tells that you cant get from the other side of the table. is this cheating because those people cant see a persons legs?

i have no idea what the fuck youre talking about WTF

So yesterday i flew home from omaha. I had to take a taxi to the airport and when i got there the bill was about 54 dollars. i gave the driver a hundred and asked for 35 change. he started fumbling through some stuff but then says "oh shit i dont have any on me, you can run inside and get some change then come back out". Not wanting to deal with it any longer i gave him the 100 and just went and checked in for my flight. Little did I know that the flight was delayed 90 minutes and id be sitting there with my thumbs up my ass for over an hour. Im pretty sure he conned me that mother fucker

next time remember to threaten to skullfuck until he gets out his change? still confused

today i was trying to get my passport and utility bill scanned and on my computer because i am trying to cash out from full tilt and they require some documents with your name and address on them to do so cause they are shysters. so my dad and i drive to the bank to get this done and the bank tells me they dont have a scanner. while im there i take out 2k in cash for my trip to italy. my dad tells me i should get some small bills but i just get it in 100s.

we leave the bank and are next door to a UPS and my dad goes lets go in here and see if they can do it. I say nah fuck them lets go to the library. so we drive a couple miles down the road to the library and ask the old homely librarian if they have a scanner. she says no we dont have one but i think if you go to the UPS by the bank theyll have one.

we drive back to the UPS store and get the scan done. the UPS guy tells me its 2.12 for the scan and email so i hand him a 100 and the guy looks around in all the drawers and says sorry sir we dont have enough to break this, do you have anything smaller? Then my dad gives me this look that basically says you are one dumb mother fucker.

moral of the story always listen to your papa.
and my papa says a sucker shouldnt keep his money.

ROFL

i get it now

ur papa also said he dont wanna see nuttin he cant have, if i heeded that wise advice id be waaaaay richer

Skoal the extra information concept was something I hadn't figured out but Daut's answer coverd it up I believe. Having a tell is extra information as well and it's also based sometimes on whether u sit next to him or not.
I'd still tell anyone I don't know (for a variety of reasons) about it, unless I really hate the guy.

taxi story wtf O_O
edit: LOL at the baller problems
life is too hard

lol

just to be clear i would pretty much always tell someone that i saw their cards because im too nice, but i really think i am being weak by doing so. i think its a mistake to do so but im going to keep being the nice guy because i dont like money =[

The taxi definitely conned you, he saw you were in a hurry (most people going to airports are) and he was stalling you and in the heat of the moment i bet many people just tell him to keep it.

You should have told him that ur sorry about his $52 loss but that its part of his job to have change money, especially when he is obv conning you.

im pretty sure online poker players are the easiest people to con in the entire world in pretty much anything not regarding their online bankroll. when it comes to online bankrolls we are the most paranoid people on earth but everything else laziness overcomes desire to fight a con

fuck that, im the most ferocious anti conner ever

you get value towned in the rhino harder than moont1980 does on 25/50 nl

I still fail to see what any of this has to do with the person you're telling. Or why telling them is an effort to be nice.

You can do something that is nice without the reason for it being an effort to be nice, you know that right? It's the intent and reasoning for the action that matters, not what you'd describe the action as being.

My intent and reasoning is a self expectation due to what I'd like to have happen in the reverse. Whether or not that would ever actually happen doesn't even matter to me. I could know the person wouldn't tell me and I'd still tell him. For no other reason then I'd want the same in the reverse and expect myself to follow the conduct that I'd prefer.

Doing anything else would be hypocritical.

because in my case it is the opposite of most people. i try to fight an urge to be nice to do what i think is right instead of fighting an urge to be greedy to be nice.

On March 29 2008 11:12 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: I still fail to see what any of this has to do with the person you're telling. Or why telling them is an effort to be nice. You can do something that is nice without the reason for it being an effort to be nice, you know that right? It's the intent and reasoning for the action that matters, not what you'd describe the action as being. My intent and reasoning is a self expectation due to what I'd like to have happen in the reverse. Whether or not that would ever actually happen doesn't even matter to me. I could know the person wouldn't tell me and I'd still tell him. For no other reason then I'd want the same in the reverse and expect myself to follow the conduct that I'd prefer. Doing anything else would be hypocritical.

pretty much what Daut said earlier its about congruence.

I wouldnt expect to be told about my cards.

what freak is saying is that he doesn't expect it too,but he would like to be told in the other guy's shoes, so he considers it a good action and he chooses to do it himself.I think.

But I believe this is a rather strange way to think,or at least not an obviously correct one.
You can't actually ever put yourself in someone elses shoes anyway,much more if that someone is a person really irritating or doing things that you'd never do.
So the decision has to be based on other factors imo

I'm not putting myself in anybody else's shoes. I'm only in my shoes. Where are you getting this? Have I not been clear enough?

Don't you mean in his position when you say what would happen in the reverse?
Ok maybe I got it wrong
then I don't get it
nm

Freak's shoes are ugly... and his hair is plain retarded.

What you aren't getting is that it has nothing to do with them. It only has to do with me and how I feel about the situation. Anybody else involved, no matter who they are, doesn't matter.

It's the same logic I use for holding the door open for people and not putting my seat back when I'm on an airplane.

I don't like it when people don't hold the door open for me. I don't like it when people put their seat back on airplanes in front of me. I don't like it when people don't tell me that I'm accidentally exposing my cards.

So I hold doors open, I don't put my seat back and I tell people when they are exposing their cards. I think that if there are things that I would like, if I don't do them myself I am a huge hypocrite and incredibly selfish. These actions may be considered nice and polite but if I didn't care about any of these things I would feel no obligation to do them. It's why I have horrible manners in general. Because I think manners and doing stuff just to be nice is stupid. I do what makes sense to me and what I'd like. Nothing anybody else thinks matters.

Whether actions that aren't really selfish exist,it is a deep and lengthy subject and I don't really believe they do.
That said, there's a lot of subconsious or semi-subconsious reasoning for manners generally accepted by ppl.
By analyzing the root of these behavioral patterns one can construct his own set of rules and reject the ones that seem
illogical.
I believe everyone does that to a certain extent.
I think a situation is partly defined by the ones involved in it and that's probably our main disagreement for the matter,as you choose to select your actions regardless of who's involved.

I probably wouldn't hold the door open for many ppl.