Ethics: Exposed Cards

I was just watching the latest PAD when a situation came up that made me think of a game I was playing in a about a year ago. The situation was that Antonino could see the cards of the player on his left (Eli Elezra) and he vocalized his dilemma with the table as well as warning Eli that he could see his cards if he chose to do so. Howard Lederer then made a comment something along the lines of "well, you've done exactly what you are required to do by letting him know you can see his cards. He is a professional and if he choses not to rectify the problem then you are doing no wrong by looking."

I thought it was pretty good of Antonino to do so, but at the same time I thought it was expected of him. I mean, they are both named pros and it's being aired on TV so he should probably speak up about it for a variety of reasons. Mainly for the integrity of the game.

This reminded me of a situation of a live 2-5 NL game I was playing in roughly a year ago where I could see the cards of the player to my right. He was obviously very drunk, playing quite loose and very very poorly. In the beginning I was sort of shocked I could literally see every hand from this guy. Then I leaned towards telling the guy, and I was genuinely starting to feel bad for the guy. (He was making pretty retarded bluffs every hand, wondering why he was always getting called, not getting value from his big hands..etc) I decided to go for a cigarette with a friend of mine who was also playing in the game and talked to him about what I should do. After thinking for a while I decided it was his own mistake for exposing his cards, not protecting himself, and I was just lucky to be sitting in the perfect seat.


Poll: What should I have done?
(Vote): Politely tell him I could see his cards, once.
(Vote): Insist that he protect his hand if he keeps it up.
(Vote): Take full advantage.
(Vote): Move seats.
(Vote):
(Vote):


Poll: Would it make a difference if he was a regular
(Vote): Yes.
(Vote): No.
(Vote):

give them nothing, but take from them.. everything.

I guess depends on how much the money means to you but personally I'd just tell him once and then take full advantage if it continues.

edit: and no it doesn't matter if it's a reg or not. I'd apply the same to both

I'd tell them... mainly because if you got caught peaking at the persons cards and they were a crazy enough person, they'd probably fuck your shit up

cheat mode ON

gogogogogogogogo

Telling them is simply your own choice, you obviously don't have to. I'm pissed off that I'm pretty sure I always would say something (and have before).

Once ages ago when I was a total newbie at the casino, a guy told me really early on that he could sometimes see my cards. Then I stacked him.

u gotta tell them at least once imo

what the FUCK? NEVER tell somebody you can see his cards at your table. ESPECIALLY if he's drunk and to your right. seriously you must hate money AND be retarded to think that you should tell him. of course it doesn't make a difference if he's a regular.

seriously, like...if you try to fold your hand face down but you accidentally flip it up, then that's just part of the game and you pay for your own retardation. or if you accidentally muck the best hand, then once again you're paying for your own retardation. if you don't properly shield your hole cards, that's no different. it's your own fault and you will pay dearly for it, and you should.

btw it's really common to be able to see the hole cards of somebody next to you. i have sat with somebody to my left or right who exposed his hole cards to me probably 15 times in my life. and like 9 or 10 of my most profitable sessions were among those 15

On March 28 2008 04:45 kimseongchan wrote: give them nothing, but take from them.. everything.

nit

if it's a tourney tell him... if it's some small stakes cash game, fuck it...

i know what your saying myth and maybe its fine but i would feel kinda obligated to warn someone about it tho T_T

lol @ feelings in poker

wait wtf this is legal

it hapened to me once i had some fish who would kinda expose his cards but i thought it was kinda illegal to focus on looking at his cards

so i just didnt pay attention to it (and even then i think i still saw his cards from time to time on accident)

On March 28 2008 05:41 [vital]Myth wrote: what the FUCK? NEVER tell somebody you can see his cards at your table. ESPECIALLY if he's drunk and to your right. seriously you must hate money AND be retarded to think that you should tell him. of course it doesn't make a difference if he's a regular. seriously, like...if you try to fold your hand face down but you accidentally flip it up, then that's just part of the game and you pay for your own retardation. or if you accidentally muck the best hand, then once again you're paying for your own retardation. if you don't properly shield your hole cards, that's no different. it's your own fault and you will pay dearly for it, and you should.

if thats how you think then karma is going to crawl up and bite you in the ass one day

every single time i even think i could catch a whiff of seeing the persons cards next to me i let them know to be more careful when they check their cards

yesterday we got to the river checked down in a pot that i riased to 50 and got called by the button on 5 10, 115 in pot. weird board i had eight high i flipped my hand over I HAVE THE EIGHT...chinese guy kept staring at my hand i kept saying eight high I HAVE THE EIGHT EIGHT HIGH...then finally he mucked

person next to the chink said he showed bottom pair, and the german faggot to my right smiled at me and was like hahaha nice dan he just mucked the winning hand, nh..then the chinese guy was like FUCKKKK

i immediately threw 50$ to the chinese guy

dealer, chinese guy, and the other 6 nits at the table (elky was only other one) stare in disbelieve at what i just did

nits are like wow you are so nice, chinese guy was like ok thank u thank u thank u u real man i keep this aside incase i win big i multiply it and give it to u chinese custom (of course he ended up going broke so some nit got my money)...but still its hte principle

you fucking faggot nits trying to get every edge you can, i will fucking kill you, if i ever see one of you able to see someones cards next to u and u dont say a word i will get up and smack your fucking face then step on your fucking skull

ur fkn wrong dude

Poll: Whos right?
(Vote): Myth obv
(Vote): Myth i think, not sure
(Vote): Rekrul i think, not sure
(Vote): Rekrul obv
(Vote): i can't answer polls because i'm retarded

[vital]Myth says:
i actually wonder if there's a written rule about being able to see someone's cards
[vital]Myth says:
bc like
[vital]Myth says:
your example of the guy mucking the winning hand
[vital]Myth says:
rules clearly state
[vital]Myth says:
that in that situation
[vital]Myth says:
you win the pot

life isnt about rules

if a hired killa fucking breaks your skull unnoticed with no evidence because the wrong guy got mad about you continually seeing other ppls cards and saying nothing, even though law dictates that he should indeed go to jail, he will walk free to break more skulls because he did it good and clean and didnt get caught

even though im trying to prove your own point wrong with your own point, bleh i hope you get the point

another epic poll from floofy

rofl rek rage

It's just a matter of morals...

I personally would tell a person if i could see their cards, as this would make me uncomfortable.

Sure its like refusing free money, but its kinda like if you saw a wallet somewhere, some ppl would take the money and chuck the wallet, and some would actually turn it in.

im also curious what the real rule is. if this is perfectly legal then, in theory, some people are probably attempting to look at your cards, and you might do a mistake from time to time. therefore if you don't do it yourself, you are getting fucked

dont do a mistake floofy

hide your cards well and pretend like u have the nuts every hand, for now its ur only shot

I think I would look at the player's cards in the most obvious way possible until he/she got the point (like leaning over obvious). If they were still stupid enough to not do anything about it then they deserve to lose.

then id ask u if u were funny and before u could answer ur skull would be stomped

You make a mistake at a poker table, you (usually, stupid bad beats ;() lose money. I'd be exploiting this.

i love live poker

half the players at the table are always nit losers who play every day and think they are cool and know everything

meanwhile i straddle and bomb the pot every hand ever street and tell them they are nit faggots and take all the money while being gracious, courteous, and pleasant to the fishes

ez game

we do play poker to make money

but life is not all about that

i still am confused as to why cocktail waitresses freak the fuck out when i tip them 5$ after they give me a water...cant you see im stuck 10k what the fuck does 5$ more matter if i can make one person happy i will

On March 28 2008 06:58 Rekrul wrote: we do play poker to make money but life is not all about that i still am confused as to why cocktail waitresses freak the fuck out when i tip them 5$ after they give me a water...cant you see im stuck 10k what the fuck does 5$ more matter if i can make one person happy i will

gentleman... but there is no friendship in poker

Well it might be legal but it still aint ethical.I mean wtf dont telll me this BS "no feelings/ethics etc etc BS in poker".You should be thinking sober and shouldnt be that egoistic if u wanna be good at something u gotta own people at their best play.I dont see how are u beating someone at their best while u r watching their hole cards.Think about it its just like POTRIPPER in UB ?You r not playing correctly nor thinking correctly its just like stealing money from someone.Dont even try to prove me wrong.Yes the concept of the game is to get as much as money possible from ur opponents but that doesnt mean that u must break all moral and ethical barriers to do so.Seriously i have a lot of respect for u myth but i just cant agree with u on this and i think u should really think about this.

@znb that doesnt mean that he s ur friend wtf.You shouldnt be telling him that u can see his hole cards just for him but for urself also.

I'm with Rek on this one.

I actually think if you don't tell them you're pretty pathetic. You have no obligation to tell them after the first time that session because then they're just being negligent but I dislike people who take advantage of stuff like this. You're playing poker. You aren't supposed to see their cards. He's obviously not trying to show them to you and is making an honest mistake in doing so. He's not going to know he's doing it unless somebody tells him. This isn't him misplaying top pair or overplaying a hand. This is him tilting his fucking cards the wrong way. Play poker. It's not about every edge, every win, every dollar. There is room for ethics and integrity in this game. In life too.

To be honest, my respect level for Myth just went way down.

I would tell them for sure.

And yes it matters if they are regulars or not.
Regulars should know how to look at their cards so screw them.

I def tell the guy if I can see his hole cards...

Other question: it happened to me about 1 month ago during a cash game that we went to river showdown, 3ways.
I had AQ on a board AQT6K.
The players were pretty loose so they all check/call me till river and i obv checked down after the 2 others checked the river with that board.
Then that thing happened: The first guy mucked and then the 2nd guy said "straight" but did not flip the cards over.
But I still flipped my cards after him, showing the 2 pairs even though I thought the other guy had the straight.
And the guy that claimed to have the straight actually said that he did not have the straight after I flipped my 2 pairs. So i had the winning hand.

The question I was wondering is: if for example, I would have mucked my hand after the guy claimed to have a straight. and it happens that after I muck he flips over his hand and that he doesnt have the straight. Can I claim the pot?
I know it is a bit dumb to ask because obv if he claims to have a certain hand, we expect him to show first then muck. But it was in the flow of the game and then when he said "straight" on that board, nobody expected him to lie.

yeah i'd let him know
if he didn't fix it then i'd consciously avoid looking at his cards

i would explain why but basically i agree with rek and freak
i'll just add it's strictly a moral choice for me, so in that sense i have no problem with myth's attitude, just different morals.

it wouldnt occur to me to keep this to myself

After having met rekrul, his posts are way funnier for some reason. Dan likes to have a good time at the table, event hat old korean dude liked you, but you scared him away ha.

it would depend if i like or dislike the person, or if it provokes me sympathy or not.

the rule is to be human