Next Big Esports Betting Game

What do you guys think of Hearthstone becoming big as a betting game in Esports?

I think Daniel Negrauananao and Elky are becoming ambassadors of the game getting more people from the gambling world to take a look at it. Those people might like it as a 'spectator sport' making bets on it.

In case you guys missed it: http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/gen...legend-returns-introducing-liquidelky

Elky returns to Esports via Hearthstone.

I wonder how serious that is by elky. So will he train 8+ hours a day now? Or just a good marketing stunt

He has that luxury. I mean he made millions in poker already.

"E sport" is a bit retarded for a game like that, where all top pros make the same decisions in 99% of spots. It really sucks Blizzard gave up on competitive side of games, i'm slowly completly losing interest for their games, which is crazy to say considering how big of a blizzard fan i was.

And its not because a card game can't be competitive. I played another game called "Infinity wars". The skill involved in this game is so insane the best player in the world can probably give me 95%+ of the time. And its not because of his cards.

HS prizepools are too small for betting to get very big yet because small prizepools + big esports betting = match fixing

On November 15 2015 02:03 Smuft wrote: HS prizepools are too small for betting to get very big yet because small prizepools + big esports betting = match fixing

Do you see that changing in the future?

it has great potential to bet on matches imo, variance is always good for betting

but whats the point on highest level theres almost no skill difference because the game is too easy, might as well flip a coin

I find some of the arguments presented here kind of weak. It is the same as outsiders talking about poker ("Oh, its just random luck, everyone can make flushes!".
Hearthstone has many similarities to poker, imagine Fixed Limit HU for example. You only have few choices and everyone can make these choices, but making them at the right time, over and over again thats what seperates the ok from the great players. Using game theory, psychology and dynamic decision making based on patterns, reads and game flow - while maintaining calm and analytical without getting tilted... that's what can make you a world class player.
Same holds true for Hearthstone, it is not the same game but there are many similarities to poker and I am astonished that so many of you do not see that.
Of course StarCraft is far better for betting / calling out skill levels because it is closer to chess or other high level strategy games, but thats not what makes a great betting game necessarly.
Chess has almost zero betting capabilities and backgammon has died down considerably due to good computer programs. The only reason people make money with poker is because of egos and information asymmetries.
Hearthstone is very much skill based, the fact that smart guys like you do not see it is a testament to it. Is it the best game to bet on? Probably not. Is it the best eSport game of the future? Most certainly not. Is it a great eSport and maybe future betting game? I think so - for the time being it seems great at elevating gamers into casters/celebrities and giving them the ability to make a lot of money without ever winning a tournament.
Elky made a smart and overdue move, using his brand value and sponsorship contract with Pokerstars and their lack of an idea how to fix the crumble of poker worldwide, while using his desire to compete/play hearthstone and making money.
The future is gaming and not poker anymore, I am contemplating how and when I will make my own move in that direction. For now I am too occupied with running my gaming startup but I have played games for more than 25 years and we are still at day 0 of the internet and furthermore gaming. Moving back into gaming will proof to be a genius move by Elky, one that he should have done years ago.
I also think most outsiders greatly overvalue tournament results in poker. 11 Mio in cashes doesn't mean 11 Mio. in the bank, he probably would be semi broke at this point without the Pokerstars sponsorship deal and I don't mean that as an attack on him, I mean that as a reality check statement. Poker is dying for many years and with computer programs and very smart kids it is inevitable that it will change for the worse (in terms of opportunity to young ppl joining the game, obv. it will be around for many years, just not as interesting/that lucrative). Unless Pokerstars or others come up with a great new version of it (that cannot be solved easily and offers opportunities to new and old gamers), there is no way the industry can be saved. Unfortunately running a big company like Pokerstars, while being at the stox exchange listed and being focused on quarterly profits/ only maintaining the platform, will might result in something we have seen with Apple when Steve Jobs left (when John Scully took over, not when Jobs died). Maintaining and upgrading existing products, without true innovation and vision.

Anyhow /rant, just felt obligated to jump in

--- Nuked ---

Rapoza: Couldn't disagree more. Livecash game or Tournament poker are 15 hands an hour. Hearthstone Facehunter = at least 6 games per hour (with possibly at least 6-7 rounds and 13-14 turns total each).
Think about HU FL, the game is solved or close to it and the edges are raiser thin. Does it mean there is no money to be made on Highstakes? Very little. Do I know people that were/are successful at HUFL ? Yes, at least 5 friends of mine come to mind that made a million playing that game.
A 100meter spring is decided by 0.0X seconds per 100m. If you are a raiser thiny bit faster than the competition you are the champion. It takes only seconds and you cannot run 1000times a day. Maybe even very few times a year when it counts. There is a huge skill/genetical/drug element to it, but tiny razer thin edges make ALL the difference.
Just because you have no big samplesize and there is a lot of variance doesn't mean there is no skill involved, it is just much harder to see who is better. There is a reason Lifecoach, Trump and so forth are brilliant players and some of them were very successful at other games. Show me a stupid but very good hearthstone player and I won't believe it.
Playing the lottery is like super high variance and you only have 1 shot for 1 entry. Does it mean that it is random? The outcome is random, yes but there is strategy involved (don't bet common numbers because your expectation is lower, don't bet when jackpot is X or Y). Difference is mainly that the lottery is bullshit and you lose like 50% on average. Roulette is much better but still -EV unless you are one of the few who mastered it. Blackjack is different, tiny razer thin edges, but you can beat the system, albeit it is very tough to implement because the casino doesn't allow you to do it once they know you have skill. I am a little bit surprised that there is a debate about luck/skill when it is super obvious that it is clearly a skill based game. Of course the edges are small and the variance is high, but building 30 card decks, considering the meta, understanding each cards value etc, there is a LOT of skill involved. Magic the Gathering might have a higher skill cap but I am not gonna argue that Magic is a luck game. What about the stox market or sports betting? All luck? Razor thin edges and a ton of skill AGAIN. Don't get fooled by the looks of it, the reason why poker can be used as an income source is exactly because people do not believe the skill level involved

Agree with everything Fisheye said in his last post

Haven't played any Hearthstone, more or less skill than Magic?

From what I know it is less skill, but Magic is around way longer and Blizzard is adding a ton to the game. Magic as a video game sucks tho from what I heard, so Hearthstone is def. better as a pure video game.
Also there is not much money in Magic, with Hearhstone you can make a lot just by being a known streamer (I dunno exact numbers but the top tier Hearthstone streamers should make more than 20k/month without even playing tournaments, just from viewership/donations/subscriptions). In Dota2 and LoL you can make easily 6+ digits a year as a top tier player. Brand creation, sponsorship and all the possibilities for the future are worth a lot more, gaming and eSport is on the verge of becoming the biggest spectator sport of the world at a rapid pace. If I had to choose again I wouldn't go into poker anymore, but back then the market situation was different, little money in gaming and big whales in poker. Now it is quite the opposite and many see and adjust to it

--- Nuked ---

Well I don't mind if you are douchy, as long as you have sound arguments. But why not present the arguments, without being douchy, that should be possible. Otherwise you might come off cynical, which might make you look far worse than what you wanted to avoid. This is a discussion board and I was jumped in to give my thoughts and insights and can defend my point of view, because I have been a professional Gamer that turned Poker pro and eventually turned Gaming Entrepreneur. So I should know the fuck I am talking about and if you know more/better I would love to learn from you

There are lot of small edges in hearthstone, some decks have very few hard decisions but those matter a ton. I'm a bit worried that they keep adding so many RNG cards tho. There are alot of better ccgs like Hex, which are more complex and just overall better(imo), but those games can't really have the success of a game made by blizzard, which has access to alot more players/fans. Some pros really seem to be here just for the show but imo most of the good ones keep going doing good.

I don't really understand all the negativity about poker when there are many people making lots of money with it, more than they ever could being eSports world class champions (which is comparatively harder to do). Yes the game gets harder and edges thinner but that's how it works with every discipline. Very good poker players who fail to make high income just choose the wrong tables because of ego, stubborness or laziness.

ClouD87, it is increasingly harder to make money, there will be a point (like with Fixed Limit), where games will almost be dead. The Number of elite players making a ton of money is decreasing, but right now great poker players can still make more than great eSport players. I believe that eSport will be way bigger for Pros in a foreseeable future. the difference to when I played 15 years ago is extreme. The internet is still in its infancy and not gonna stop. Due to different ways of making money (streaming, sponsorship, donations, subscriptions, coaching, tournaments, etc.) people do not need to be great players anymore. There is also value in being entertaining (like on YouTube). Poker is a great game but as chess and backgammon offer very limited ways of making a living today, so will poker become more a solved game and therefore only a very selective niché group can make a lot of money (mostly live vs big whales). Gaming itself will transform drastically in the next years to come, VR is just the beginning. You cannot compare the cardgame of poker to a whole industry (especially when poker itself is gaming online, but with a gambling attribute). In terms of viewership and importance poker is already smaller than eSport. Not being negative towards poker itself, just stating what the statistics and common sense suggest. Poker gambling and overall market size is shrinking (in terms of people making money not in terms of what Pokerstars makes) vs eSport gaming exploding (especially because you do not need to invest money, only time).