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Range to steal and cbet

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DragOn_   Canada. Apr 08 2015 03:56. Posts 214

do you open wider, tighter or the same in SB steals vs button steals?


Trav94   Canada. Apr 08 2015 03:58. Posts 1785

What would you suggest he opens from the CO then Midian? Something like 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o then?


traxamillion   United States. Apr 08 2015 09:11. Posts 10468

Tighter in sb steals vs a good bb because you are oop

Vs some fish I will always minraise-4x their bb from my sb and with a Cbet it is auto +ev with anything. Vs regs I'll usually make it 4bb or limp.

In the small blind vs bb in opened pot it can be ok to open limp sometimes too especially with antes. Usually this is done with the lower end of your range with hands that are just barely too good to fold; and then for balance add some nut hands to limp/rr and even some 10% hands to happily limp/call.


traxamillion   United States. Apr 08 2015 09:17. Posts 10468


  On April 08 2015 02:58 Trav94 wrote:
What would you suggest he opens from the CO then Midian? Something like 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o then?



Looking at that graph I would basically just remove K2s-K7 (I personally probably open a lot of the hands I am listing here but this is my attempt to extract a co range from this 40% button range), Q5-Q7s, J6s, J7s, 85s, 64s. Maybbbbeew K9o, 910o

Is it bad that when trying to trim down that 40% to 35% or whatever, the first hands I take out of the range in that graph to tighten it up are all the weaker suited ones?

 Last edit: 08/04/2015 09:23

DragOn_   Canada. Apr 08 2015 09:43. Posts 214


  On April 08 2015 08:11 traxamillion wrote:
Tighter in sb steals vs a good bb because you are oop

Vs some fish I will always minraise-4x their bb from my sb and with a Cbet it is auto +ev with anything. Vs regs I'll usually make it 4bb or limp.

In the small blind vs bb in opened pot it can be ok to open limp sometimes too especially with antes. Usually this is done with the lower end of your range with hands that are just barely too good to fold; and then for balance add some nut hands to limp/rr and even some 10% hands to happily limp/call.



Ic..so against a reg a SB open could be comparable to a CO open 25-30%? And is this given that you open 4x, or with smaller opening sizes as well. If you 4x the BB should theoretically response with a tighter range, so that could mean you can tighten up your opening range as well so as not to be too weak, assuming that the BB defends enough to be unexploitable preflop.


ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Apr 08 2015 10:00. Posts 5070


  On April 08 2015 02:58 Trav94 wrote:
What would you suggest he opens from the CO then Midian? Something like 22+, A2s+, K5s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o then?



Most regs seem to be in the 25-30% ish range from CO. This is the range PokerSnowie suggests:



The Button range I copy pasted is extremely similar to the PokerSnowie BTN range except PokerSnowie omits A2o and A3o which seems too tight to me

SB seems to be where there's the biggest divergence in approaches from good regulars. Some people like to take a wide limping strategy and mix in some limp/raises, some people like to mix between raising some and limping some, some people open as low as 25% and others as wide as 75%. Reasons for opening wide are that you only have to do better than the -0.5bb you post dead to make a raise better than a fold, you get a better price on your raise because it's only 2bb extra to make a 3bb raise and you only have to get through one person whereas from other positions you have to get through multiple. Reasons for limping wide is similar in that you get a great price pre and arguments for raising tight are that people defend very wide in the BB nowadays and you have to play postflop OOP. It seems to be the position where there's the least agreement on what's good and I'd suggest experimenting and just going with what you feel is comfortable, probably choosing a raise/fold approach instead of a limping strategy at lower limits considering the extra effect of rake and using the same stealing principle that the more they defend and the better they play postflop the less you steal

One day good. One day bad. And some days, even hope 

DragOn_   Canada. Apr 08 2015 22:33. Posts 214

yeah makes sense, also I believe that Pokersnowie opens to 2.25bb from all positions except the SB. That could mean that if we took Pokersnowies ranges to be optimal in that scenario, then if we wanted to construct ranges for opening 3bb based on Pokersnowie we would be theoretically opening tighter than Pokersnowie, because our opponents would defend tighter given the worse price they are getting, and in order to keep our opening/defending ranges similarly optimal we would have to open less as well. I think we probably couldnt theoretically open the same amount or wider and exploit our opponents folding more, because of the worse price we are giving ourselves for steals as well.

So imo if we are using Pokersnowies ranges vs strong opponents we should also consider bet sizing and tighten up further. But possibly if we are a winning player then we could also open exploitatively wider because our opponents are generally weaker so we could actually just use Pokersnowies ranges opening to 3bb anyway.

Pokersnowie seems to like emphasizing hands with high equity such as Axs and unsuited broadways over hands like suited connectors. Why do you guys think that is? I personally find weak Axs to be unprofitable for me to play UTG/HJ but that could just be me playing them badly...


traxamillion   United States. Apr 09 2015 10:47. Posts 10468


  On April 08 2015 21:33 DragOn_ wrote:
yeah makes sense, also I believe that Pokersnowie opens to 2.25bb from all positions except the SB. That could mean that if we took Pokersnowies ranges to be optimal in that scenario, then if we wanted to construct ranges for opening 3bb based on Pokersnowie we would be theoretically opening tighter than Pokersnowie, because our opponents would defend tighter given the worse price they are getting, and in order to keep our opening/defending ranges similarly optimal we would have to open less as well. I think we probably couldnt theoretically open the same amount or wider and exploit our opponents folding more, because of the worse price we are giving ourselves for steals as well.

So imo if we are using Pokersnowies ranges vs strong opponents we should also consider bet sizing and tighten up further. But possibly if we are a winning player then we could also open exploitatively wider because our opponents are generally weaker so we could actually just use Pokersnowies ranges opening to 3bb anyway.

Pokersnowie seems to like emphasizing hands with high equity such as Axs and unsuited broadways over hands like suited connectors. Why do you guys think that is? I personally find weak Axs to be unprofitable for me to play UTG/HJ but that could just be me playing them badly...



your playing them wrong then; nutflushes are good


ToT)MidiaN(    United Kingdom. Apr 09 2015 11:10. Posts 5070


  On April 08 2015 21:33 DragOn_ wrote:
yeah makes sense, also I believe that Pokersnowie opens to 2.25bb from all positions except the SB. That could mean that if we took Pokersnowies ranges to be optimal in that scenario, then if we wanted to construct ranges for opening 3bb based on Pokersnowie we would be theoretically opening tighter than Pokersnowie, because our opponents would defend tighter given the worse price they are getting, and in order to keep our opening/defending ranges similarly optimal we would have to open less as well. I think we probably couldnt theoretically open the same amount or wider and exploit our opponents folding more, because of the worse price we are giving ourselves for steals as well.

So imo if we are using Pokersnowies ranges vs strong opponents we should also consider bet sizing and tighten up further. But possibly if we are a winning player then we could also open exploitatively wider because our opponents are generally weaker so we could actually just use Pokersnowies ranges opening to 3bb anyway.

Pokersnowie seems to like emphasizing hands with high equity such as Axs and unsuited broadways over hands like suited connectors. Why do you guys think that is? I personally find weak Axs to be unprofitable for me to play UTG/HJ but that could just be me playing them badly...



I definitely wouldn't say PokerSnowie is "optimal", but the ranges are based on PokerSnowie playing billions of hands against itself so they should be fairly solid at least. I think it's probably a little on the tight side from the button and a bit on the loose side from the SB, at least it is relative to most of the top regulars, but it's a good place to start. Besides, it's easy to get tons of hands in at zoom nowadays, build up a big sample size and then apply some filters in your database to see how you're doing opening x hand from each position and tweak your ranges, cutting out hands that aren't showing profit and adding hands if you're doing well with every hand you're opening in a position.

There's definitely some logic in what you're saying about opening tighter if you open larger, particularly from the earlier positions where PokerSnowie isn't especially tight to begin with as it's opening some fringe hands such as all suited Ax from UTG as well as K9s, J9s and KJo which aren't all that commonly opened judging by most recent instructional videos I've seen by Mid stakes players on RIO.

One day good. One day bad. And some days, even hope 

Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Apr 09 2015 23:08. Posts 9634


  On April 08 2015 08:17 traxamillion wrote:

Is it bad that when trying to trim down that 40% to 35% or whatever, the first hands I take out of the range in that graph to tighten it up are all the weaker suited ones?


Wut? Why ?
35% is pretty snug for BTN opening range and if you want to take something off it should be the worst offsuits first, since suited ones at least gives us flushes and its not like you would get a lot of value off bad offsuit combos anyway

Last 60k hands @ micros i've got 35bb/100 pre-rb with 55% steal @ BTN think its pretty good ?

 Last edit: 09/04/2015 23:13

DragOn_   Canada. Apr 10 2015 04:43. Posts 214


  On April 09 2015 09:47 traxamillion wrote:

your playing them wrong then; nutflushes are good



Yeah theyre good, but they only happen 5% of the time, and when you do hit its not likely you get paid for it. Villain sees a flush on the board and slows down a lot. At least with pocket pairs you hit a set 12% on the flop and 16% by the turn, and you can get more money in more often because its not obvious. I dont see how we r supposed to be making money overall here. We hit an ace and cant get more that 1 street of value, we hit low pair and have a shitty bluff catcher that also cant call more than 1 street. Most of the time we just have to check/fold the flop or turn

@ MidiaN yeah I have been looking at my profits for each hand a lot lately, trying to solidify my ranges preflop. Ive been using a sample of about 90k hands but its still hard to tell with some hands lol, probably need like 1mil

 Last edit: 10/04/2015 04:59

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Apr 12 2015 20:37. Posts 15163


  On April 09 2015 22:08 Spitfiree wrote:
Show nested quote +


Wut? Why ?
35% is pretty snug for BTN opening range and if you want to take something off it should be the worst offsuits first, since suited ones at least gives us flushes and its not like you would get a lot of value off bad offsuit combos anyway

Last 60k hands @ micros i've got 35bb/100 pre-rb with 55% steal @ BTN think its pretty good ?

It's about being able to build ranges that can't be exploited by 3 betting from the blinds.

10% tighter than what I was working with that I got from Janda's book :O

93% Sure! Last edit: 12/04/2015 20:57

DragOn_   Canada. Apr 13 2015 01:31. Posts 214

I think trax was talking about a CO 35%


traxamillion   United States. Apr 13 2015 08:04. Posts 10468


  On April 09 2015 22:08 Spitfiree wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 08 2015 08:17 traxamillion wrote:

Is it bad that when trying to trim down that 40% to 35% or whatever, the first hands I take out of the range in that graph to tighten it up are all the weaker suited ones?


Wut? Why ?
35% is pretty snug for BTN opening range and if you want to take something off it should be the worst offsuits first, since suited ones at least gives us flushes and its not like you would get a lot of value off bad offsuit combos anyway

Last 60k hands @ micros i've got 35bb/100 pre-rb with 55% steal @ BTN think its pretty good ? [/QUOTE

That is good. I was talking about midians pokersnowie graph of 40% and taking out the worst hands. I was just said I would rather remove 85s, 64s, 96s than 910o, j9o, j10o when I am stealing. There is more value in hitting the higher pairs and more straights than the small flushes imo


traxamillion   United States. Apr 13 2015 08:06. Posts 10468

I'm not a huge fan of Q5, Q6, Q7 either if I had to remove more hands but I of course steal with all of these


LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Apr 13 2015 11:13. Posts 15163

why'd you ever go below 40% though?
Like only time is if we have 2 spewy bettors behind us
And then it doesn't matter much really what the bottom of your range is

93% Sure! Last edit: 13/04/2015 11:14

traxamillion   United States. Apr 13 2015 20:34. Posts 10468

I wouldn't I was just disagreeing with pokersnowie's ranges. As in what I consder the top 35%-40% of hands to be here


traxamillion   United States. Apr 13 2015 20:37. Posts 10468


  On April 08 2015 08:17 traxamillion wrote:
Show nested quote +



Is it bad that when trying to trim down that 40% to 35% or whatever, the first hands I take out of the range in that graph to tighten it up are all the weaker suited ones?


Everything I wrote was based on this one simple question/comment


Spitfiree   Bulgaria. Apr 13 2015 22:03. Posts 9634

yeah we missread it
you have different perception of the top 35-40% which i agree with


Trav94   Canada. Apr 24 2015 08:58. Posts 1785

For what it's worth. The predefined hand ranges in equilab from deuces cracked and card runners are a really good starting point a think.


 
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