Pokers' Value Measurement Problem: Effective rake

I see so much seemingly unnecessary fighting lately about the overall "economy" of the game. I hear some players suggest for example stars is the cheapest site to play on. I here players suggest the rake for online poker vs live is comparable and sometimes even better.

I have talked in other dialogs about an overall picture that I can foresee that others don't seem to follow. But I am realizing now that this picture is just too big to convey.

If I had to boil it all down to one understanding or realization for the collective community it would be this definition:

A winning player might exchange 5USD on site A with an an expected roi of 5%. The same player deposits 5USD on site B with an expected roi of 4% We say that the “effective rake” on site B is higher than site A. The profitability in terms of “effective rake” is hidden on every site by many contributing factors. The most significant are the make-up of the player field (winning players vs depositing players), and the winning distributions. These factors are not definable for the players community.

I called it "effective rake" for lack of a better term only. It is our inability to "collectively" measure this value that causes so much confusion and arguing amongst the players communities. We need this foundation in order to mount an argument for a more profitable/sustainable game and to create a general understanding of what that entails. Basically I am saying we need a giant "rake-o-meter" so that ALL players can properly evaluate the cost of exchanging their monies for chips on each site.

I go into the significance deeper here: https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.co...-problem-of-measuring-effective-rake/

The basic idea is that lacking an accurate value measurement "mechanism" is the single biggest the collective player pool has. Fixing this leak is another story but recognizing it and understanding I think would be a critical first step in that process.

u should just play poker instead of writing all this crap that wont do anything

point is stars net is over 50% of their gross, so fk them for raising rake.

On December 25 2014 11:18 FrinkX wrote: u should just play poker instead of writing all this crap that wont do anything

This is what we were taught isn't it, and what we continue to teach each other. But I think I have discovered something that turns that "theory" upside down onto its head. I think the reason this "argument" or conversation about "rake" (or what should really be "effective rake" has never had any steam or could never achieved any realistic political pull is exactly because the players do not have an accurate measuring mechanism for it.

My "theory", that I believe I can prove, is that if poker had a giant accessible and publicly observable effective rake meter, which showed the EFFECTIVE rake from all major site, that the overall average rake between sites would begin to drop dramatically Or in other words, rake in poker is unnecessarily high because the players are missing a "mechanism" to properly evaluate the cost of it.

so how exactly does your proposed remote rake genie measure my ROI

It doesn't measure your roi, although it seems you have correctly deduced that if the profitability of a site is not measurable, then often it is difficult or impossible to measure one's "roi". Often players feel you can get a general idea with a small "sample" and some "bayesian" math, but often for sitngos or mtts especially a true winrate based on empirical evidence (ie graphs) is impossible. In my field for example you cannot play enough games in one year to establish a winrate with any confidence and within that year the field changes dramatically! Some players have been evaluating their game over time, maybe a few years, but then large "political" events such as black friday and different regulations come into play.

My solution allows players to accurately assess where their money is best spent in relation to overall average profitably of the field. It is far more difficult to explain the "solution" than it is to outline and understand the problem. I wonder if a few of us can collectively agree about the significance of this issue, as well as the importance and value of a solution to it?

Merry Christmas Digger!

On December 25 2014 16:18 whamm! wrote: Merry Christmas Digger!

2015 will be the greatest year for poker ever. Merry Jesus B-day!!!!

why do you put everything in scare quotes

including things with clear definitions like ROI and things which at least the speaker you should have an idea of what they are like solution

They aren't scary at all, you are correct to point out my peculiarity. It involves like 5 levels, it will help you to understand my ""'s if you read ideal money. Also, roi does not have a clear definition, it has many. Even knowledgeable players and unknowledgeable players don't have the same definition.

Also because of my "breakthrough" all my definitions are correct or more "correcter" than seemingly everyone else.

I mean think about it, some people think that 7% rake online is = to 7% rake live.

Think about how "monkey-ish" people in the future are going to think of us!

Effective rake is the formal way of realizing that live poker is generally (at this time in history) incredibly more profitable than online. Now we need "" to show we mean comparatively, and not as an hourly.

Its quite simple: we were missing a formulaic standard...

a foundation...

there rest of the re writing of the game is just automatic...

let me help you:

Scare quotes or shudder quotes are quotation marks placed around a word or phrase to imply that it may not signify its apparent meaning or that it is not necessarily the way the quoting person would express its concept. The quotes serve a function similar to verbally prefixing a phrase with "so-called". When referred to as "scare quotes", the quotation marks are suggested to imply skepticism of or disagreement with the quoted terminology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes

we need better content on lp, this is awful

On December 26 2014 17:26 FrinkX wrote: we need better content on lp, this is awful

I agree :/

6 months since the last update
http://www.liquidpoker.net/poker-forum/329946/Serious_BOOB_Discussion(NSFW).html

Get your shit together LP :/

On December 26 2014 17:26 FrinkX wrote: we need better content on lp, this is awful

Maybe in another 3 months, a green star will make a few hand discussion threads

we need a Diggerflop category exclusively for his threads on LP

On January 02 2015 23:16 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On December 26 2014 17:26 FrinkX wrote: we need better content on lp, this is awful Maybe in another 3 months, a green star will make a few hand discussion threads

you are a green star, so go ahead

I made this thread to try to be very specific. That we might collectively see one small but significant point.

This site is selling 200 rake free accounts (http://bitnpartners.eu/), I am not affiliated in any way...but I pointed out that in the near future (which is now) we will start to ask a new kind of question...

For this example... each account costs 2 bitcoins...but what is the TRUE value of these rake free accounts...

In other words, is this a +ev line for the player? Are there interesting possibilities for new cooperative strategies?

I hope we are allowed to discuss this...many new ideas and opportunities like this will come to the players community I'd like to continue to bring them forth for discussion.