Vote No Supernova+? Rake Theory

That chart is ridiculous, when has PS have had a problem with random number generators, house bots, payout problems or heavy collusion?

Pay out problems on pokerstars ?

On November 03 2014 14:04 BadGoNe wrote: Anyways, I'm just doing the devil advocate, I'm not saying the rake shouldn't be lowered. I'm just saying you guys are not tackling the real problem: the lack of new players and constant mass of rec players. You can have a free rake model as much as you want, if you don't have the "spots" to play against, not paying rake will not change the fact that the games will be tight and hard. Not soft. If you think the rec players are playing less nowadays because they realized they are paying too much rake I think you need to wake up. Also you'll find lots of players making a living thanks to RB (them being slight losers but positive after RB) all quit. Because they might be losing to the rake a bit, but remove the rake. Will their skill level against the competition increase magically...? Or would they be losing maybe slower but for real this time since they would have close to no RB? Who will be left in the games if you get no more (or less) rec players and bad regs? Oh yeah I see you'll be left with softer games with regs battling each other because now there is no rake?

You do realise that people who make their money off rakeback are actually winners in the game right..? Remove rakeback and they win their money from a positive winrate instead of rakeback.

100% agree

Bovada has already made all of these changes; done everything they need to do to protect their games. Now that site is #1 imo

On November 03 2014 20:39 Baalim wrote: That chart is ridiculous, when has PS have had a problem with random number generators, house bots, payout problems or heavy collusion?

Yes I agree, and you will find I already went to explain it and basically called them out for it. I'm not concerned with that specific project I just am projecting a bigger idea than the current perspective. There are many "decentralized projects in the works, so as the community shifts towards a different kind of economic structure it is helpful to understand the ideal we are moving towards. (btw I changed the picture to the thread @ nxtpoker, mostly so the OP here can have less of a giant derail picture).

You do realise that people who make their money off rakeback are actually winners in the game right..? Remove rakeback and they win their money from a positive winrate instead of rakeback.

Yes this is the type of thinking we need to make sure is prominent. I might even have some or much to add but as long as we are thinking collectively in this direction we have a chance to bring out a profitable and sustainable game (again?).

Here is some ammo for the current important dialogs for the next few days, I don't have time to put it where it belongs here, but perhaps someone might find it useful for here, or places such as twoplustwo:

http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com...tting-out-to-protest-what-is-optimal/
http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com...aked-poker-and-rakeless-poker-differ/
http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/11/04/ideal-rake/

#idealpoker #idealmoney

On November 04 2014 03:59 diggerflopboat wrote: Show nested quote + On November 03 2014 20:39 Baalim wrote: That chart is ridiculous, when has PS have had a problem with random number generators, house bots, payout problems or heavy collusion? Yes I agree, and you will find I already went to explain it and basically called them out for it. I'm not concerned with that specific project I just am projecting a bigger idea than the current perspective. There are many "decentralized projects in the works, so as the community shifts towards a different kind of economic structure it is helpful to understand the ideal we are moving towards. (btw I changed the picture to the thread @ nxtpoker, mostly so the OP here can have less of a giant derail picture).   You do realise that people who make their money off rakeback are actually winners in the game right..? Remove rakeback and they win their money from a positive winrate instead of rakeback. Yes this is the type of thinking we need to make sure is prominent. I might even have some or much to add but as long as we are thinking collectively in this direction we have a chance to bring out a profitable and sustainable game (again?).

Its not a good way to start this teletubbie community thing by blatant lies

On November 02 2014 23:10 Skoal wrote: poker economy is a hilarious phrase

poker ecosystem is better.

there is no incentive for a poker site to reduce rake or give regulars more.

in fact, it is in poker site best interest to get rid of all regulars and only have fish.

asking for less rake and more rake back is an exercise in futility.

everyone always argues for things that would benefit them, from seeing this post, it looks like you are someone who plays in the supernova level and thus you want to earn more by having the system advantage you.

On November 05 2014 03:44 Zalfor wrote: there is no incentive for a poker site to reduce rake or give regulars more. in fact, it is in poker site best interest to get rid of all regulars and only have fish. asking for less rake and more rake back is an exercise in futility. everyone always argues for things that would benefit them, from seeing this post, it looks like you are someone who plays in the supernova level and thus you want to earn more by having the system advantage you.

This is not actually accurate though, the ideal for a Pokersite is to have a good stream of fish that can be continually remined for deposits as a renewable resource - and then lots of mass volume breakeven regulars to churn the fishes money into rake. Remember that fishes don't really play a lot of hands or lose everything to rake. They tend to just busto. If the players winning the fishes money are cashing it out that's not the preference for the site. The preference is for that money to be broken down into rake.

So high volume regulars going for Supernova or Supernova x2, x3, x4 etc... is actually what Pokerstars wants. They want the games to be tough enough that most players who are semi-good (killing games before rake) still need that 40%+ Rakeback to survive and be profitable on any level. That way players will grind insane volume to get that level of Rakeback (because for many it's the only way they can win) and Pokerstars collects most of the coin as rake.

Now - my argument is this. The best poker ecosystem may not be the best for Pokerstars as a business, but perhaps there is a healthy balance between the two. Advocating for lower rake to create a bigger % of winning players before Rakeback will dramatically soften the games, and result in many more casual regs being able to win and brag to their friends. More recreational players that aren't completely horrible will also win more often. Players don't come to Poker to lose money. They come with the idea that they too can be a poker star. The games sex appeal comes from winning players who live next door to you bragging about how welll they are doing.

So what I'm suggesting is 1% of players or less in the pool as winning players isn't an ideal formula. Not for the health of the games, and not for Pokerstars long-term survivabilty as a business plan. I don't know what the ideal % is to bring in the maximum amount of new deposists through word of mouth advertising, but it's probably more like 20%... maybe even 30%. It's about finding a balance where average players can be winning players, and the best will win big. And all of them will brag. That's how you grow the grassroots of the game.

Just my opinion. This other guys posts I'll have to read more about but he seems to be more about propagating his personal solution of a bitcoin poker site. I think it will be a while before bitcoin stabilizes enough to achieve that dream, but eventually big sites will use it. One day.

On November 05 2014 01:16 Baalim wrote:Its not a good way to start this teletubbie community thing by blatant lies

Please understand. Firstly I am affiliated with absolutely nothing, and speak always on behalf of the interest of the players. Nxt is 10% poker and 90% developers. It is part of a very very big project, yet nxtpoker is a small subsection. I want you to understand what it is:

bitcoin is to the financial system as nxtpoker is to poker sites.

It is a decentralized autonomous "organization" in which the players can vote on the overall "economic" decisions for the game. It is a legislature, which further functions to seperate powers in a crucial way. But what they are now is just some developers putting together a programming project, soon it with "birth" a community that has more freedom but at the same time more power to do enact the most ideal decisions for the economy of the game. It's strange and if it's new to you and others its important you do A LOT of reading and research before you start to argue against the idea because bitcoin is 5 years old and its NOT going away, and neither is the concept of the complete decentralization of poker.

What if we think of bitfrog (a decentralized gaming platform possibly in development), as the platform and something like nxtpoker as the missing bridge for the community to have enough system and organization to create and sustain their own games. What I am saying is in the very near future we are looking at a system that is self-sustaining because the initial programming parameters and other algorithms have been optimized and solved. With currency we used to generally have 1 national fiat for each country, but with crypto we now think in terms of X currency.

I simply point out the concept of X poker. In light of all this and a deeper conversation on the truth about the economy of the game, I wonder if you truly do have something to offer on this subject, because it seems to me most people are not at all paying attention. Fewer seem to have taken the time to truly consider it. We are talking about the entire machine, do we not see this?

maybe people should just suck less

I agree having a bitcoin poker room would be the ultimate solution. Bitcoin is definitely more mainstream now and having a poker room with it's own currency and even advertisers can work.
The current poker online model is just not sustainable anymore because it's beholden to banks and legal bullshit which comprise majority of the costs. Coins already have a large audience and might eventually be more mainstream than most think.

Btw I hate alt coins but looking at the Online Poker situation I definitely believe it's going to the shitter in the next 3 years

On November 05 2014 18:05 K40Cheddar wrote: maybe people should just suck less

This is the wrong attitude to have, even if it's a sarcastic one. Everyone should care about the health of the games and be concerned about the rake. Pokerstars is first and foremost a business. Forming a union is a good way to apply pressure through wallets that vote together and play where they are listened to.

Either way - although his presentation of his ideas is a bit eclectic and difficult to follow, he makes a good point that we aren't that far from a decentralized online poker site that runs on bit-coin and where the software is open source. Securing it from potential hackers and such is one thing, but usually open-source can do that better because you have so many people to spot problems. If the builders don't care about making a profit and just care about bringing rake-free poker to the masses... that's pretty cool. And everyone would certainly play there.

So imagine - rake free poker + bitcoin stabilized + no big company taking everyones profits for themselves. That is something that could easily grow by word of mouth. I've never really envisioned zero-sum poker existing, but... when you think about it that's a platform that could be pretty easily built. We have a choice.

You see its WAY simpler than that my friend. Imagine 20 years ago I wanted to show you email, but you didn't really understand, so I created and email and sent it to you and showed you how to reply. Would you immediately understand the use? Probably not, yet the introduction to such a technology is life changing...game changing for almost anybody, any group, any organization, any business.

There is a new "technology" a new "email". In order to spread it we create a "coupon", and collectively adopt its use for certain useful functions, such as staking groups, coaching sites, rakeback, site bankrolls, etc. You create say 1 million of these "coupons", each person gets a wallet and you start passing them out. It simultaneously teaches plays what "public keys" and "private keys" are.

Its a multi layer solution that solves many problems and brings coherence to the community in a way we never knew how to achieve. In order to start you just need a group of well known, well trusted pros. It is not a panzi or pyramid scheme as nobody is putting in a bunch of money, its just adopting a coupon or a token system that helps spread the word of the revolution:

http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com...28/cliffs-asymptotically-ideal-poker/

Because its trade-able on an exchange it does gain value though, incentivizing adoption and use. But the key is that it rides on TOP of the bitcoin infrastructure, so it doesn't needs millions and millions of dollars in capital to get started, its essentially costs-less to create and adopt so it will start to accrue value as soon as the community begins to spread it based simply on the cohesion it brings.

Here is an outline for all the information I gathered for a players union: http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/stike-committe-a-players-union/
The key element to implement an effective players Union is a new technology outlined here http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/nas-coin/

The 2 keys technological advances that make this solution newly available the players need to implement are: 1) The monetary supply of the coin can never be changed for the duration of its use 2) The coin is tradable on a digital free market exchange such as: counterparty What is needed then is a few trusted, trust-able, and prominent industry professionals and leaders to step forward to implement and speak out to the players about the adoption of such a coin. Then this digital asset can be created and locked in as a coin on an exchange as quick as setting up an email, and the “coins” can be transferred as quick as sending one.

Some notes about the revolution http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com...mber-rememeber-the-5th-of-novemember/
Some interesting results and useful notes/links from the day of http://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com...oly-and-regulatory-controls-hu4rollz/

#idealpoker

ffs, not meaning to add these posts

Here the players manifesto is posted and links to the creation of our union http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/...oker-not-over-just-beginning-1487504/

You seem to have just high-jacked this thread with near unintelligible posts and a link to a very poorly written blog as well as dead links on 2p2. Although at this point I actually think this thread has served it's purpose.

I'm going to make a website for Pokerstars players. A union. Simple enough, I'll run it for free + donations. Won't take more than is needed + whatever $20-30/hr for any time put in. Shouldn't amount to much $$$. Everything else will be used to lobby for lower rake as well as better and healthier games. The agenda or plan or whatever can be voted on once there is enough membership.

Other than that, I think I'd like to lobby for something like Seals With Clubs to get even better. Although honestly 2.5% rake (effectively half what we pay now) + 50% RB that seems fairly easy to attend is already a good model. So maybe just building on that and becoming a powerful affiliate for them would be a step in the right direction.

It seems to me the only thing standing in the way of a second poker boom is that Bitcoin needs to become stable enough in value for the market to have confidence. After that, a rake free poker site or minimal rake site is actually fairly easy to build and maintain. It would be fantastic if someone like Facebook would come into the real-money market using bitcoin. The real difficulty is simply acquiring enough of the currency itself (it can be difficult for non-technical people to understand it's use) and then the stability of it. We're probably 5-10 years away honestly, but the second boom will come.

If Bitcoin becomes really mainstream, and by that I mean even some of my friends actually ask or talk about it, then it will definitely get recreational players/ bitcoin curious people to deposit. At present the best way to teach pokerstars a lesson is to stop playing there completely - nothing less.
Everywhere I read to vote with your wallet but they still fire up pokerstars each day the wake up lol

On November 09 2014 21:34 whamm! wrote: If Bitcoin becomes really mainstream, and by that I mean even some of my friends actually ask or talk about it, then it will definitely get recreational players/ bitcoin curious people to deposit. At present the best way to teach pokerstars a lesson is to stop playing there completely - nothing less. Everywhere I read to vote with your wallet but they still fire up pokerstars each day the wake up lol

you are exactly correct, and that is only my premise, we call that premise "ideal poker". The solution to make that premise a reality is "asymptotically ideal poker". Players around the world are moving in solidarity to adopt a "poker coin", which is really just like a digital coupon with a finite supply. We are discussing a marketing plan to connect many like minded business entities (that are not a monopoly) that are interested in creating a NEW network. The value of this coin comes from its finite-ness and its exchangability on a decentralized market.

It is literally akin to paying people to sign up for email in 1990. Once players and businesses take the 2 seconds it takes to sign up for a wallet and receive some of the "poker coin" they are instantly introduced into this collective movement. Some of the benefits to this coin are:

SOME of their multiple functions are:

1) early adopters stand to gain most
2) players would have incentive to educate themselves on crypto currency
3) players would have incentive to cooperate
4) creates incentive to hold a unique account thus creating single unique identifiers
5) the network created with wallets and “keys” facilitates a proper functioning democracy
6) facilitate a players committee or a union (or Ppa)
7) helps prevent collusion and fraud within the community without relying on third parties.
8) helps raise communities to forum 2.0‘s

I have been PMing with benjamin1 asking if they are willing to learn about this further to continue to explore it and educate/discuss it with this forum community, as we are working to get on all forums to spread the movement.

Players interested in supporting the movement are asked to spread the phrase "ideal poker" and ask each other "what is ideal poker" in order to move in solidarity with it.