American Exceptionalism

I can agree with the first half, the second half I'm not so sure. We won't stop until we have it all? You realize that the USA and their allies do SOME good in the world, right?

When the old guard die off, I think things will get better.

I try to look at the good that we do but each time I do, I see terribly instances of us taking advantage of the situation for our own interests. if you can list any real good we do, please do. for example, using USAID for spying and trying ot incite a revolution.

Aids eduction : spying/revolution
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2...nother-usaid-cuba-spy-program-exposed ;


Osama for DNA harvesting.
http://www.tpnn.com/2014/05/28/obama-...rvesting-dna-using-fake-vaccinations/

Stop the spread of terrorism: Destroying a soverign country that posed no imminent threat to the united states and killing 1,million Muslims , which then led to more radical muslims at a higher rate than ever before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

What have we done good?

"sovereign country" is redundant. if you believe saddam hussein's iraq deserved its sovereignty i can't imagine a country you would consider to have forfeited its sovereignty. baathist iraq invaded multiple neighbors, used chemical weapons on civilians in its own borders, human rights comparable to north korea...

for me the tragedy of the US is the shit we missed like cambodia. the fact that vietnam is peacefully unified after a fake and vain war invented by kissinger that killed fuck knows how many innocent people, but korea is still divided after the communists started that war and conducted a 1984 experiment on the half that they held on to.

On September 30 2014 15:43 Santafairy wrote: "sovereign country" is redundant. if you believe saddam hussein's iraq deserved its sovereignty i can't imagine a country you would consider to have forfeited its sovereignty. baathist iraq invaded multiple neighbors, used chemical weapons on civilians in its own borders, human rights comparable to north korea... " Look at the country now. It was way better off. There was less extermism. There was order. Now it's chaos. With a million people dead. And who are we to World Police? There's a international court called the Hague. Take him to the Hague and try him under court. for me the tragedy of the US is the shit we missed like cambodia. the fact that vietnam is peacefully unified after a fake and vain war invented by kissinger that killed fuck knows how many innocent people, but korea is still divided after the communists started that war and conducted a 1984 experiment on the half that they held on to.

Don't you see the similiarties between the Vietnam/Cambodia war and the Iraq war?
Stop the spread of Communism
Stop the spread of Terrorism

Gulf of Tonkin
Weapons of Mass Destruction

We have psycopaths in power.. They have been in for awhile.

Let me ask you this, and I'm genuinely curious, as I live in a military town. I've had friends station in South Korea Air Force Base. I've seen you South Koreans protest our base there. My air force buddies talk constantly about how cheap your hookers are. How we can get them for 10$ and they are dimes. And talk down about all you guys. You really like our presence there? Why do you think we're still there?

I am also a bit curious about the hsitory of the Korean War from your side. We were taught that the Soviets/Koreans/Chinese attacked the South Koreans until the Heroic United States Army came and pushed them back up towards the Chinse Border, then eventually settled on the 38th parallel. Is that more or less your perspective? And what's this have to do with the Japanese ruling over you?

TBH I don't follow the world news that closely, and I was never that studied in history, but for example, we sent aid for the recent ebola outbreak. We send aid for most of the worlds disasters, to most of the worlds countries whenever they need it.

Our government deploys our military all over the world for our own gain, yes. But we also send troops to help out other countries.

Sometimes we kill innocent civilians and kids, but sometimes we save them from other oppressors.

Look at WW2, I am so proud of our country for stopping the Nazi's. Some of my extended family was in those death camps, and no one helped them, until the US(and other countries) stepped in and dominated them. Imagine if we never went to Germany, life would be VERY different now.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not pro military(waste of resources and life), but sometimes you gotta take out the trash, and it's a dirty job.

imo

edit: I know I focused more on the military and not the general government. I don't like big government controlling everything I do either, but they do some good as well, in regards to social programs and attempted public safety(lol).

Kinda silly to act like the only thing that separates Syria from the USA is exceptionalism.

Patriotism is for stupid people, never be proud of your country, never be proud of shit you have nothing to do with, you just happened to be born in a piece of land between two imaginary land, why would you be proud of stuff people who also were bone relatively close did before you were even born?

Like rational people, consider yourself a citizen of the world, have no nation, have no religion, have no race.

On September 30 2014 15:50 sniderstyle wrote: Let me ask you this, and I'm genuinely curious, as I live in a military town. I've had friends station in South Korea Air Force Base. I've seen you South Koreans protest our base there. My air force buddies talk constantly about how cheap your hookers are. How we can get them for 10$ and they are dimes. And talk down about all you guys. You really like our presence there? Why do you think we're still there?

On September 30 2014 15:43 Santafairy wrote: for me the tragedy of the US is the shit we missed like cambodia.

goddamn man pay at least some attention to what the other guy says

the reason the US still has troops in korea is the republic of korea is our ally and the democratic people's republic of korea is our enemy and we fought for 3 years to make sure this entire peninsula wouldn't be wrapped up in a shit regime and as long as there is a single US soldier here it is unthinkable for even the braindead regime in the north to break the cease-fire because they would be inviting the swift destruction of their cold war era armed forces and the honeymoon would finally be over. and because in the vietnam war the country that contributed the second most troops to the cause of south vietnam was south korea and we know how to return a fucking favor. i wonder if there is some guy in russia or china right now saying hurrr why did we keep sending materiel and guns and shit to north korea? do they really want our military equipment? yes because north korean forces fucking fought in the chinese revolution also. communists know how to return favors too it's not complex geopolitics even a fish understands if you show him your cards he'll show you his cards.

On September 30 2014 15:50 sniderstyle wrote: Look at the country now. It was way better off. There was less extermism. There was order. Now it's chaos. With a million people dead. And who are we to World Police? There's a international court called the Hague. Take him to the Hague and try him under court.

fascism is okay because of order? where would you rather live, saddam's iraq or postwar iraq? think about the human beings maybe. i wonder whether the arab spring would have happened or been as strong if iraq were still a playground run into the ground by fascists. there was only less extremism if you think state-sponsored crimes against humanity are okay because it was the government doing it so it counts as order. yes the US is the world police. you're spot on. who else is going to do it? remember in the phantom menace when natalie portman tries to get the galactic senate to help her planet? and they're slow and don't give a shit and even if they did they're impotent? that's called the United Nations. take him to the hague? how? have lucius fox arrange a meeting with him and plant a cell phone in his building to use as sonar so batman can jump from another building into his office and then reverse-skydive into a plane and deliver him to commissioner gordon's doorstep? if so why isn't kim jeong-eun facing trial now? batman can find hong kong but not pyongyang?

this is your answer? a country invades multiple neighbors, commits genocide against its own people (kurds), had a history of using weapons of mass destruction, murders, rapes, tortures, imprisons political enemies as well as anybody with impunity. it's not extremism if it's state-sponsored, is that it? we left that fucker in power in 1991 after kuwait with the lazy order>chaos idea and it was a mistake. oh just take him to the hague. because it worked for kony right? i mean jesus it's tantamount to doing nothing. it's something a hippy supports to pretend they're doing something. it is deluded. it's possible to understand something is awful without convincing yourself you found the answer when the answer is the most obvious idealist thing that in the real world does nothing. "well we sent the war criminal a summons to the international court that would 100% convict him to a life sentence for crimes against humanity but he didn't show up? oh well i guess. maybe we had the wrong address" you can't just take someone to an international court this is not realistic.

i am not convinced of a million dead from 2003+ either? people do the same shit with the dresden firebombing just fabricate numbers to be able to say oh the USA isn't all so good is it. no, war is not pretty but you should still be able to tell the difference between good and evil. anyway how many people died in the iran-iraq war... oh but it's okay for iraq to start an 8 year war and kill hundreds of thousands of people and use chemical weapons because "sovereign" ? oh but at least saddam's domestic policies created an economic boom and that benefited everyone in the country raising their quality of life - oops he was an asshole foreign and domestic. you say we have psychopaths in power. okay whatever if that's relevant to anything. but saddam hussein was santa claus?

On September 30 2014 15:50 sniderstyle wrote: Don't you see the similiarties between the Vietnam/Cambodia war and the Iraq war? Stop the spread of Communism Stop the spread of Terrorism Gulf of Tonkin Weapons of Mass Destruction We have psycopaths in power.. They have been in for awhile.

when you say vietnam/cambodia war are you talking about the 1978 invasion of vietnam by cambodia after which the khmer rouge finally fell. where was your hague then? they still had a seat at the UN even. the tribunal for the people who perpetrated genoide in cambodia in the 70s? oh yeah that started in 2006. where was your hague when millions of people were digging their own graves? jesus any one of those people would have LOVED to see ANY helicopter flying in to save them and their family from the sadistic retards working them to death just for the hell of it. and if it had happened to be a huey with an american flag on it would you have cried "ugh again exceptionalist imperialist jingoism make love not war"?

because when i said cambodia i was specifically talking about pol pot and the khmer rouge and. i was talking about the irony that vietnam is the country that saved cambodia when cambodia is the country that, like iraq, needed saving. but that was like 10 administrations ago so i realize holding a grudge against an idea doesn't make sense. yes the gulf of tonkin was bad. so we should be angry at "the government" ? the government is air, it's not a real thing, it's a collection of people who are real. and the people are all different

maybe i am worked up right now but i don't think it's very fucking brave or astute to go durrr america shit. yes the NSA is a police state. yes kissinger was probably a war criminal. but countries are big places and histories last a long time. i understand if you are upset about vietnam. but if you can find fault with the usa why can't you notice it elsewhere. in the 40s would you have said national socialism creates order, germany is a sovereign nation, we searched their country afterwards and found almost no progress towards an atomic bomb, the V2 was a harmless rocket more slave laborers died building it than were killed by its warhead, WMDs is a lie. or you wouldn't have said that because it wasn't fashionable at that time and your peers wouldn't have responded the same way like oh what a provocative guy? it's possible that the usa does stupid shit and makes mistakes but the face of evil is still timeless and you could see it in iraq and you can see it not 100km north of my apartment and it doesn't matter how many phone calls get logged by the NSA a human life is priceless and you owe it to the memory of every person in EVERY country who died because they had the wrong friend or were in the wrong family or had the wrong religion or spoke the wrong language or were on the wrong side of a border because they didn't have the connections or they couldn't pay for transportation to safety because they couldn't even afford one hour in a fucking pc cafe in the civilized world to type shit on the internet against the only country founded on the fucking enlightenment

yeah where is your hague if kissinger who lives in the first world with easy police access was never indicted and in fact got a nobel peace prize and meanwhile actual criminals are indicted but only symbolically because they are impossible to capture

what do you think about bin laden then omg the usa violated pakistani sovereignty with stealth helicopters and extrajudicially murdered somebody

my mistake the NSA is a surveillance state not a police state, the war on drugs is a police state though

eeewwww imperialism bullshit... and he is american
stop believing in youtube comments and stop puking ignorance

Santafairy

You’re right, I didn’t read entirely what you wrote originally before I responded so I apologize for that. I appreciate you responding with such length, passion, and honesty. I’ll really read what you wrote this time, and here is my response.

I get the power of a US citizen. Just recently, James Foley’s’ death was the impetus for more bombings in Iraq. Thank you for answering that question.

State Sponsored crimes against humanity is definitely a shit thing. I suppose my problem with the whole Iraqi war is that the Iraqi people never asked for it. We were told they would welcome us. We were unwanted and caused such devastation to the country. You have issues with the number 1,000,00. Okay it may not be that high, but it’s definitely in the hundreds of thousands. How can we be mad at ISIS when It was us that caused them to be that way? If some foreigner came to the USA and started blowing shit up, taking over cities/control / massive civilian causalities and war crimes with no accountability, I would be rebellious too. And they say but Obama is a tyrant, are you happy that we’re here to free you?

And you may say but ISIS is a collection of foreign fighters. Well, they are ahead of the curve. They don’t see borders. They are a religion. A global religion. They feel the pain of their brothers.

I think what you asked me is a good question. Would I rather live in Saddam’s Iraq or the current state of affairs. I guess I would be excited to be living in the current Iraq because there would be potential to pursue what you call “the enlightenment state” However, that’s my perspective as an American Athiest who was born with freedom to do what I want. Being a Sunni Muslim would be cool because I’d be like, “Finally now we can live how we want, under Sharia law.‘ Being a Shi’te Muslim, would be shit - cause they control the country and are corrupt as fuck and only help other Shi’ites with all this financial aid that they are getting.. They wouldn’t even give Kurds any weapons to fend off the Sunnis. Being a kurd would be cool because you’d finally be getting respect and also have a chance to live how they want.
If we really cared about Saddam’s atrocities then why is it that we sold him weapons, provided military intel during the Iraq Iran war?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_S...Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/f...ed-the-other-way-on-chemical-weapons/

I see the atrocities around the world but I can’t influence any of that. The only thing I can influence are the people around me, who I vote for. And I feel a bit responsible since all these things are being done in my name as an American citizen.

Also, since you live in such close proximity to Peoples Republic of Korea, have you ever met or talked with a North Korean? I think ti’s funny you called it a 1984 science project because I think the same thing. I can’t believe how many people are brainwashed. That’s why I’d like to know if you talked to a Nkorean, does he really think Kim Jung Un is GOD and to be worshipped? Or is it just a big act because they are afraid? Look at this video, how the people respond to Un’s presence. They are crying and chanting. Are the acting or do they believe it? One of the oddest things, I’ve seen : http://youtu.be/IrCQh1usdzE?t=17m35s

If they believe it, then brainwashing really works. Look at that, crazy.

Also, I'll concede the point about the Hague ; I'm surprised there aren't more assassinations.

On September 30 2014 17:29 goose58 wrote: TBH I don't follow the world news that closely, and I was never that studied in history, but for example, we sent aid for the recent ebola outbreak. We send aid for most of the worlds disasters, to most of the worlds countries whenever they need it. Our government deploys our military all over the world for our own gain, yes. But we also send troops to help out other countries. Sometimes we kill innocent civilians and kids, but sometimes we save them from other oppressors. Look at WW2, I am so proud of our country for stopping the Nazi's. Some of my extended family was in those death camps, and no one helped them, until the US(and other countries) stepped in and dominated them. Imagine if we never went to Germany, life would be VERY different now. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not pro military(waste of resources and life), but sometimes you gotta take out the trash, and it's a dirty job. imo edit: I know I focused more on the military and not the general government. I don't like big government controlling everything I do either, but they do some good as well, in regards to social programs and attempted public safety(lol).

We call WW2 the last Good War meaning that it was justified. All the other ones subsequently are not good, IMO.

On October 01 2014 04:08 Baalim wrote: Patriotism is for stupid people, never be proud of your country, never be proud of shit you have nothing to do with, you just happened to be born in a piece of land between two imaginary land, why would you be proud of stuff people who also were bone relatively close did before you were even born? Like rational people, consider yourself a citizen of the world, have no nation, have no religion, have no race.

this is how i've always felt and genuinely never understood why it isn't the default view for more people.

On October 01 2014 15:25 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On October 01 2014 04:08 Baalim wrote: Patriotism is for stupid people, never be proud of your country, never be proud of shit you have nothing to do with, you just happened to be born in a piece of land between two imaginary land, why would you be proud of stuff people who also were bone relatively close did before you were even born? Like rational people, consider yourself a citizen of the world, have no nation, have no religion, have no race. this is how i've always felt and genuinely never understood why it isn't the default view for more people.

Because it makes you alone, weak, and isolated, respectively.

On October 01 2014 15:25 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On October 01 2014 04:08 Baalim wrote: Patriotism is for stupid people, never be proud of your country, never be proud of shit you have nothing to do with, you just happened to be born in a piece of land between two imaginary land, why would you be proud of stuff people who also were bone relatively close did before you were even born? Like rational people, consider yourself a citizen of the world, have no nation, have no religion, have no race. this is how i've always felt and genuinely never understood why it isn't the default view for more people.

prob because you grow up with culture all around you. yes you never got a chance to choose the culture that influences your life but at the same time i think it's quite silly to think for a second that it doesn't influence the way you think/live.

On October 01 2014 17:00 2primenumbers wrote: Show nested quote + On October 01 2014 15:25 bigredhoss wrote:   On October 01 2014 04:08 Baalim wrote: Patriotism is for stupid people, never be proud of your country, never be proud of shit you have nothing to do with, you just happened to be born in a piece of land between two imaginary land, why would you be proud of stuff people who also were bone relatively close did before you were even born? Like rational people, consider yourself a citizen of the world, have no nation, have no religion, have no race. this is how i've always felt and genuinely never understood why it isn't the default view for more people. Because it makes you alone, weak, and isolated, respectively.

why does it have to? there's many things people can share bonds and relationships over besides being of the same race/religion/nationality.

On October 01 2014 17:04 mnj wrote: prob because you grow up with culture all around you. yes you never got a chance to choose the culture that influences your life but at the same time i think it's quite silly to think for a second that it doesn't influence the way you think/live.

of course it influences my life, i never meant to imply it didn't.

On October 01 2014 13:24 sniderstyle wrote: Santafairy You’re right, I didn’t read entirely what you wrote originally before I responded so I apologize for that. I appreciate you responding with such length, passion, and honesty. I’ll really read what you wrote this time, and here is my response. I get the power of a US citizen. Just recently, James Foley’s’ death was the impetus for more bombings in Iraq. Thank you for answering that question. State Sponsored crimes against humanity is definitely a shit thing. I suppose my problem with the whole Iraqi war is that the Iraqi people never asked for it. We were told they would welcome us. We were unwanted and caused such devastation to the country. You have issues with the number 1,000,00. Okay it may not be that high, but it’s definitely in the hundreds of thousands. How can we be mad at ISIS when It was us that caused them to be that way? If some foreigner came to the USA and started blowing shit up, taking over cities/control / massive civilian causalities and war crimes with no accountability, I would be rebellious too. And they say but Obama is a tyrant, are you happy that we’re here to free you? And you may say but ISIS is a collection of foreign fighters. Well, they are ahead of the curve. They don’t see borders. They are a religion. A global religion. They feel the pain of their brothers. I think what you asked me is a good question. Would I rather live in Saddam’s Iraq or the current state of affairs. I guess I would be excited to be living in the current Iraq because there would be potential to pursue what you call “the enlightenment state” However, that’s my perspective as an American Athiest who was born with freedom to do what I want. Being a Sunni Muslim would be cool because I’d be like, “Finally now we can live how we want, under Sharia law.‘ Being a Shi’te Muslim, would be shit - cause they control the country and are corrupt as fuck and only help other Shi’ites with all this financial aid that they are getting.. They wouldn’t even give Kurds any weapons to fend off the Sunnis. Being a kurd would be cool because you’d finally be getting respect and also have a chance to live how they want. If we really cared about Saddam’s atrocities then why is it that we sold him weapons, provided military intel during the Iraq Iran war? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_S...Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/f...ed-the-other-way-on-chemical-weapons/ I see the atrocities around the world but I can’t influence any of that. The only thing I can influence are the people around me, who I vote for. And I feel a bit responsible since all these things are being done in my name as an American citizen. Also, since you live in such close proximity to Peoples Republic of Korea, have you ever met or talked with a North Korean? I think ti’s funny you called it a 1984 science project because I think the same thing. I can’t believe how many people are brainwashed. That’s why I’d like to know if you talked to a Nkorean, does he really think Kim Jung Un is GOD and to be worshipped? Or is it just a big act because they are afraid? Look at this video, how the people respond to Un’s presence. They are crying and chanting. Are the acting or do they believe it? One of the oddest things, I’ve seen : http://youtu.be/IrCQh1usdzE?t=17m35s If they believe it, then brainwashing really works. Look at that, crazy. Also, I'll concede the point about the Hague ; I'm surprised there aren't more assassinations.

okay i'm not talking about US hypocrisy, geopolitics is complicated and that's about all i know of it. i think after vietnam there was not a lot of interventionism in the public spirit. i think the US liked a middle east where they could stay out and there was safety of oil and relative order aside from israel periodically raping all the countries that tried to destroy it

but if the US does one good thing it strikes me as illogical to go if you care so much about x why didn't you do it earlier or why didn't you do y and z because the actual actors are different... i mean maybe different people all lie but it's not the same lies and it's not the same hypocrisy. like g.w. bush had nothing to do with iraq in the 20th century so whose exactly hypocrisy would it be? the "US" let saddam in power earlier and so on so why did the "US" go to war with his country, it's not the same people. and furthermore why was the regime left in after the gulf war it strikes me invading your neighbor for $$ is a dick move

the reason i like the question which iraq would you rather live in is i consider myself dispassionate so i have no investment in people's motivations or loyalty to anything. i want to see the result and if iraqi people can be closer to self-determination like our own country can boast then i think it's an improvement. i am not a great utilitarian so it's hard for me to measure the magnitude of the improvement from saddam's iraq to postwar iraq against the cost of the war... that could be interesting but a real analysis involves like alternate histories about iraq's future without our intervention.

i don't really have an objection with iraqi WMDs (in 2003) being largely a falsehood. because the forces involved in occupying a country and deposing a government, they seem different than the relations in a mathematical proof or something. like it's not as simple as have WMDs -> send in 101st airborne because it's impossible to control, the scale is wrong if you can see what i mean. okay i will explain differently

so if i look at the conclusion some people make: oh they were actually complying with disarmament in 2003, therefore our invasion was a mistake since the president said that was our reason for invading, i don't think that's true. i mean it's a great reason if it's true because if the country isn't complying with WMD disarmament ordered by the international community then yes fix it something is wrong. but if it's false does that mean there aren't other reasons? it's a reason you picked because in good faith thinking it was true it was the most relevant reason at that time because it was a contemporary problem. but why were WMDs a problem in iraq, because iraq had fucking used them multiple times in the past already and all the other things, two wars, human rights. like here's an analogy of how i feel, if you had a kid and he failed a bunch of classes and did drugs and got in fights and got a girl pregnant while giving himself AIDS and then was driving drunk and crashed a car and you finally said that's it i'm putting you in an institution. and then the kid says no you can't put me in an institution, i have a police test right here it says i was 100% sober when i crashed the car. you didn't really tacitly OK all the other shit the kid did just because of your inaction

i could have talked to a north korean but not as such. like i have seen psychiatrists but not in a professional capacity just on the street. there's plenty of interviews with escape stories you can read, documentaries etc. there's also schools for children who got out