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A couple deep, live poker spots

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gawdawaful   Canada. Sep 12 2014 10:43. Posts 9012

Just out of curiosity how some of you would approach a live game where its fairly active and semi deep.
First hand, it went something like young TAG reg opens from utg 2 to 30 at 5/5, fish calls and a random call and we squeeze jacks from hijack or CO to prevent it from going 6 ways and get 4b to like 260 (something like 30/120/260) playing 3k deep and KXXr flops, cb and we fold. Alternatively, is it better to just flat pre and hope we set over set someone? Or take one off on the flop and just tee off on turn/river and just play the chicken/who has bigger balls game?

Second hand, tighter tag reg opens from utg, fish calls and live pro calls, we sqz btn with AsAh to 125 (25 to 125) playing something like 2.8k deep with the two regs and 1.5k deep vs the fish, flops T64cc and we get lead into by CO for like 180 into 500? Better to just raise/fold to action from utg and stack off vs fish, and ??? vs CO if he 3b? Or flat flop and hope we get to showdown cheap?

In general, I'm having a lot of trouble playing one pair hands in multiway bloated pots deep. Just feels like an area I need to improve significantly on.

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Im only good at poker when I run good 

mnj   United States. Sep 12 2014 13:55. Posts 3848

the first hand i think we always 3 bet here, iono how often were going to get 4bet but u did say TAG. i mean it its online TAG lvl then maybe we just flat, but if it's "live' tag then im still 3 betting here. i pretty much always call the 4 bet and prob lose more money this way

im assuming the CO is the reg? i think leading here and 3betting is a lil too cheeky. i don't really see people do it that often unless it's with the nuts. i'd be inclined to flat tho. esp if theres a chance the fish will come and hopefully get more money on a good turn


casinocasino   Canada. Sep 13 2014 21:50. Posts 3343

I would flat in the first hand for sure, in the second hand I would flat too...

quit bloating pots with 1 pair?


casinocasino   Canada. Sep 13 2014 22:03. Posts 3343

In a game this deep you want to change your pre flop strategy, 3 betting more Axs, suited connectors (lower pp possibly), and calling with your big pairs.. from another players perspective if they have QQ, KK, they should just call and see flops instead of 4 betting, so where does your expected value comes from when their range is uncapped and so wide in a bloated pot where you will never get it all in preflop? I guess the counter argument is 3 bet a super wide range and play monster poker, but I prefer to be unbalanced and use other to play big bet poker with.

as played just flat the bet in the second hand and you can do this with a wide range


MezmerizePLZ    United States. Sep 13 2014 23:51. Posts 2598

Hand 1 always 3 bet this deep. if hes 4betting u too light here then just own him by calling down occasionally and 5 betting a polarized range. Ur hand is just too strong not to play agressively preflop vs such weak ranges from all the callers etc. If hes 4 betting good ranges just fold flop most of time unless it like T87 or u have some playability / reason to continue.


Hand 2 look at the other players in the hand and see if they are interested. it would be pretty difficult for me to get away from this hand for 3k vs most live opponents im used to, unless its 3 way action or whatever. This is a very player dependent hand imo, but I would tend to raise v small readless. would probably fold to UTG if he 3 bets the flop, quite possibly getting allin vs the other players in the hand but hard to say. this is a live situation where the other 2 players involved in the pot will very often give u info accidently on if they are still interested in the hand. calling the flop may be best regardless tho. I guess I would probably only call on 2nd thought and see how the turn played out. I think its pretty close and opponent dependant. alot of weaker live opponents will never try to get allin this deep with weaker draws etc, and will only call with them if u raise here.


MezmerizePLZ    United States. Sep 13 2014 23:53. Posts 2598

hand 1 i would prob flat TT- and maybe JJ if its vs a super tight opener


casinocasino   Canada. Sep 14 2014 01:41. Posts 3343

yeah I guess the less reads you have on the two guys behind you the more I like a reraise on the flop.


casinocasino   Canada. Sep 14 2014 01:55. Posts 3343

I think that flatting strong pairs is correct, unless you have already established the right image where players will 4 bet you with QQ+, AK+ the majority of the time, you should be just be calling and playing a medium sized pot..


gawdawaful   Canada. Sep 14 2014 14:56. Posts 9012

does it matter if I were to include that in hand 2, up to that point, this is probably my 6th 3b pre in like, I want to say 4 hours of play? I 3b 2 hands right off the bat when game got started and everyone was at the table for that. Even if they dont have any previous inkling that I might be slightly aggro, they do have that in their head tonight.

hand 1, the opener is on the more loose side of your average tight aggro grinder. He can go on lockdowns but no indication of that prior to this hand. Probably big ace/big cards, suited ace, most PP and sc is his opening range. Maybe shave off some of the smaller pairs and say, <66 and below A7s, no less KQo for his broadways.

casinocasino, I think a lot of times I'm not opposed to just flatting, ie, if I was on btn and no callers ahead of me, at most we go 3-4 ways and blinds might be peeling way too wide. I think theres a lot of value under repping my hand in certain spots, jacks is one of those hands I like to do it with because people think I 3b a ton even though I really dont. But I feel like if I flat here, its bound to go 6 ways and I end up just set mining and not knowing what to do if a Q flops. Hence why I chose to 3b pre and try to clarify the situation a bit. Not saying thats the ideal way to play, hence why I threw it up for discussion

Im only good at poker when I run good 

gawdawaful   Canada. Sep 14 2014 15:25. Posts 9012

mnj - co is a reg/live pro. Fish is also a reg

Im only good at poker when I run good 

casinocasino   Canada. Sep 14 2014 15:47. Posts 3343

I don't think there is anything wrong with investing a very small portion of your stack and playing a small pot with JJ instead of trying to squeeze a little bit extra EV pre flop, I mean that is my preference.... I think to squeeze JJ you need to have like a 10-20% 3 bet in position and they need to be picking up on that, I mean like I said you can choose to play monster poker, and 3 bet a really wide range like Kxs, TJo+, low pairs, suited connectors, then I think it would be a mandatory 3 bet with a hand as strong as JJ... but without history and my inclination is that you squeezed early in the game I think its a less profitable play overall then calling.

In the second hand that history is fairly relevant, especially if they seen you get "out of line" at showdown. 6 3-bet in 4 hours, seems low.. I would just make a small adjustment in a game like that and 3 bet different range of hands until you suspect they start to play back light.

 Last edit: 14/09/2014 15:54

PoorUser    United States. Sep 14 2014 17:27. Posts 7471

If a reasonable scenario in hand 1 is you 3b, orig raiser folds and just fish calls then its always a super easy 3b (most likely option live imo). If orig raiser is 4b spazz then 3bs fine too of you proceed with that read. If he's super nitty and then 4bs a good range flatting JJ is no big deal. If that's the case, you're still 600bb deep in pos on the flop and will probably end up winning all the semi scary+ runouts anyways.

Flat flop in hand 2 and figure it out after. Don't see many regs trying to bring the pain for 6bi oop live.

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gawdawaful   Canada. Sep 14 2014 19:02. Posts 9012

hand 1 went tag reg 4b and fish folds, which is obv not ideal...
hand 2 went, I flat, utg and fish both flats. Turn is an offsuit 9 completing 78, everyone checks to me. I'm 100% sure fish & CO dont have me beat this point, and I'm also sure that utg does not have a flopped set. Should we be betting here or just hoping for a cheap showdown or a blank river?

Im only good at poker when I run good 

MezmerizePLZ    United States. Sep 14 2014 22:44. Posts 2598

bet


SemPeR   Canada. Sep 15 2014 08:43. Posts 2288

-ring live is not my game but I've been working a lot on building a hu game with gto principles. that said, still a couple hundred hours lifetime of volume, in addition to a couple hundred hours of 5/5+ omaha, so psychology/ranges of live players isn't foreign to me.
-Disagree with mez, h1 is never "always" a 3bet, and the deeper we get the more I'd lean towards a flat. If I was creating a mixed pf strat, I'd flat here more than I'd 3bet.
asplayed, responding to your questions:
1. you're not "hoping you set over set someone", you're just taking the line the realizes more of the pot and nets you higher EV
2. before I think of your 4bet spot as an instance of the "who has the bigger balls" game, I think of it as an instance of the "who has the (measurably) stronger range, thus who is the bluffcatcher and how much the polar player is going to apply over multiple streets" game...

-was about to say "fuck i disagree with mez in h2 too" while reading it, but he stream-of-consciousnes reasoned to the opposite conclusion, lol
" I guess I would probably only call on 2nd thought and see how the turn played out. "
what he said, for pretty much the same reasons. ppl gonna give you a looot of info. use it well.

hope that helps.

ps i dont check the forums much, you have my skype if you have more questions. gl.

 Last edit: 15/09/2014 08:44

casinocasino   Canada. Sep 15 2014 18:32. Posts 3343

I don't disagree but is the turn a clear bet? I don't expect the players to bluff us off our equity, but the 9 is the worst card in the deck, and it completes a lot of 2 pairs that they might c/r shove


MezmerizePLZ    United States. Sep 16 2014 02:52. Posts 2598

I said against a super nit u could flat JJ, but rly it is almost always a 3bet in described situation. very often u will get like tag to call or fold and fish to call and them playing rly str8 forward postflop super deep, and thats when we printttttttttt. rly depends on the openers range i guess, but most live players are opening too wide here even if they are tag for the game to not be 3 betting this imo. flatting is reasonable though so whatever. u have to let them know you are a MONSTER. act like u dont know how to fold, never show a big fold etc never talk about ur big folds either. pretend u had air if u have to fold


gawdawaful   Canada. Sep 18 2014 12:02. Posts 9012

I bet 450 on turn with the intent to b/f vs pfr, pfr c/c and other two guys fold. River is a blank offsuit 2, guy donks 900 into ~2k pot with about, I want to say 1100-1200 behind. This is where we bitch fold instead of doing something heroic?

Im only good at poker when I run good 

PoorUser    United States. Sep 18 2014 15:19. Posts 7471

huh? gotta call dude

Gambler Emeritus 

TimDawg    United States. Sep 18 2014 21:51. Posts 10197

Clayton "LIVE PRO" Maguire ftw

online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball 

 
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