5/5 PLO Deep River C/R Bluff

Ok so this hand is from a 5/5 PLO home game. There is no cap on the buy in and players are allowed to straddle from any position (mississippi) for whatever amount they'd like.

At this point the game is 5 handed and we are all pretty deep. The villain in question is one of the better players in the game who is capable of making big folds and big calls. He is overly loose preflop and opens a ton, especially in position. He is pretty aggro postflop and tends to bet on the bigger side in most spots. He is also capable of value betting very thinly. We've played a lot together live and I think we both have a mutual respect for each others games. He probably views me as a solid TAG who is capable of pulling big bluffs occasionally but generally doesn't get too out of line.

On this particular night I had been playing a lot tighter preflop than normal because he was on my left along with another good player to his left. I'm pretty sure he was aware of this before the hand happened.

On to the hand....

Stacks

Villain ($2475)

Hero (covers)

I am in the HJ with ,

Villain is on the BT and straddles to $15 preflop,

SB folds, BB calls, player that acts before me calls and I also just limp in.

Villain hesitates for awhile and says, "Let's make it a little more I guess", like he is unsure of whether he should raise pre or not and makes it $50 total.

Call, Call, Call

Flop is

Pot: $140

Check, Check, Check

Villain bets $125

Fold, Fold, I call

Turn

Pot: $390

I check, Villain bets $300

I call

River

Pot: $990

I check, He bets $650 with $1300ish behind.

I think for not very long and decide to turn my hand into a bluff and shove all in (I have him covered).

My thinking is that he can be value betting as weak as 9T or even A8 (maybe a bit optimistic?) as well as all boats of course. I feel he probably is never just pure bluffing at this point but it might be possible. Also I don't think he ever gets to the river with JJxx. I realize I'm giving him a really good price on his call but my line is just super strong. Also I think it's pretty obvious but I don't think I can ever just call the river. So it's either all in or fold.

What do you guys think?

If you guys have that kinda range on the river wouldn't he be more comfy calling off A8xx than T9xx just cuz he got more blockers and doesn't expect T9 to really bluff shove here or shove for value?

If you think he barrels off on the turn w wrap/straight draw type hands and can be value bet/folding T9 here a lot then shove can be good. Seems kinda like kamikaze poker to me tho

both calling/folding are better options than shoving imo, leaning towards fold more than call.

playing KK84 on 873r OOP vs a good player deep when he's betting vs a field of limpers on that board, you really have no visibility on future streets or any information to make good decisions by taking a passive line on the flop by C/C'ing.

I would much prefer lead flop or c/r the flop if you were to continue this hand.

Your hand really can't take any pressure on almost all turn cards outside of the two Kings remaining and it will be hard to get value for the times you get your cards since you do not have the initiative and are OOP, not only that he is going to be bombing the turn with extremely high frequency vs a c/c'ing range on the flop from your position.

Also I would raise this hand 100% preflop and try to fold out the button and have position vs the limpers.

don't read into the table talk so much, he has a hand on the button that he wants to build the pot with vs 3 limpers.

and this hand also wants to continue vs 3 limpers on a board texture that he's generally not going to get 3 folds out on.

fold flop
There isn't really a point to talk about river since you should never c/c flop but river looks incredibly spewy too ...
He multibarrel a 4way flop, what do you expect ?

Kaboom nailed it.
It's really important to understand because it's 2 huge mistakes imo.

oh and btw wich hands limp LP, c/c flop , c/c turn and c/r river exactly ?

On October 27 2013 17:41 waga wrote: fold flop There isn't really a point to talk about river since you should never c/c flop but river looks incredibly spewy too ... He multibarrel a 4way flop, what do you expect ? Kaboom nailed it. It's really important to understand because it's 2 huge mistakes imo. oh and btw wich hands limp LP, c/c flop , c/c turn and c/r river exactly ?

which bluffs c/c turn?

i am on same page as kaboom preflop/flop. easy raise pre, easy c/f flop. river i think is probably ok since he will never think you have less than trips after limping pre and c/c c/c and it looks like you have J8 a ton so its possible he can make big folds here. possibly even 33 77 could be folds given how strong you look on the end

I think it's very hard to have a J8xx hand that doesn't raise pre, raise flop and plays turn like this.

On October 28 2013 06:30 DustySwedeDude wrote: I think it's very hard to have a J8xx hand that doesn't raise pre, raise flop and plays turn like this.

its very difficult to have just about any hand. villain wont put us on QQ+ cause we would have raised pre, villain wont put us on T9 cause we just call river, villain wont give us credit for too many 99 or TT bluff combos cause its hard for those to reach the river and nobody bluffs with straight blockers on a paired board. you can do this for anything, i dont think villain just thinks through the hand and calls because its a confusing line to take with any individual hand. we could easily have something like AJ82 with a backdoor suit or J865 that wanted to get in behind whales cheaply, etc. the fact is we are basically never weak on the turn, we block the 8x boats and villain looks like hes vbetting but the sizing seems thin value. i cant imagine a more perfect scenario to be bluffing here. basically if we dont bluff here then we are never bluffing in this spot cause theres no better candidate to do so with, and if we are never doing it then theres no reason he shouldnt be snap folding even 87

Pot it pf, fold flop as played, I like shoving river tho

On October 28 2013 09:45 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On October 28 2013 06:30 DustySwedeDude wrote: I think it's very hard to have a J8xx hand that doesn't raise pre, raise flop and plays turn like this. its very difficult to have just about any hand. villain wont put us on QQ+ cause we would have raised pre, villain wont put us on T9 cause we just call river, villain wont give us credit for too many 99 or TT bluff combos cause its hard for those to reach the river and nobody bluffs with straight blockers on a paired board. you can do this for anything, i dont think villain just thinks through the hand and calls because its a confusing line to take with any individual hand. we could easily have something like AJ82 with a backdoor suit or J865 that wanted to get in behind whales cheaply, etc. the fact is we are basically never weak on the turn, we block the 8x boats and villain looks like hes vbetting but the sizing seems thin value. i cant imagine a more perfect scenario to be bluffing here. basically if we dont bluff here then we are never bluffing in this spot cause theres no better candidate to do so with, and if we are never doing it then theres no reason he shouldnt be snap folding even 87

Our hand looks exactly like what it is imo, weak pair+draw on flop, trips on turn

That's a very wide range to rep J8+ with on the river.

Villain's range is very wide on the river only because we played our weak hand so passively that our perception of villain's range on the river is practically the same as it was on the flop leading us to believe that a river bluff can be +ev, when in fact due to our mistakes from previous streets we don't have enough information to make a better decision than our opponent will on the river for a 1000BB pot. Having solely just an 8 blocker isn't enough information to ship in this spot.

The key problem of this hand is

We are in a 1000BB pot OOP with a bluff-catcher and are turning that into a bluff with almost no information about villain's range aside from the fact that "he's opens wide pre", which if anything works against us in this spot than for us.

I think what Daut is saying has merit of if we're never bluffing in this spot it's a great spot to bluff.

Only issue is that, these are spots you do not want to be in nor should you be trying to balance into your PLO game.

Mistakes on earlier streets compound to huge mistakes on later streets, one of the many reasons why deepstack PLO can be extremely profitable especially in live games.

Definitely re-pot this preflop. I think river shove is okay but not great, ur def getting called a decent amount but still works often enough. if he bets bigger on river with his nut boats then it makes the bluff even better

You are getting called here alot.I do not think you will make him fold 87 or even 83.In his eyes the only two possibilities are you either have J8 or you are bluffing.
I don't mind the call here because it is virtually the same but you save 1300$.If he has some kind of a strong draw on the flop,it turns into even stronger draw on the turn with the diamonds and then follows on the river when he misses.I know what some of you are going to say -but the turn pairs the board.Yes but you don't look like 87 or set so it is not so bad play if he is aggressive and competent!
So based on how the hand progressed i think the call or fold are best.But it is very tough spot!

thanks for the responses everyone

villain ended up tanking a long time and calling off with 789T

thought about making a new thread but i think this fits in here:

can anyone explain well how EV changes with mississippi straddles?

Say I'm playing 10/25 with uncapped straddle, 4k stack. What's the right amount, assuming it's nonzero.

As little as you can