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Live PLo hand, Collusion or not?

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Raidan   United States. Oct 11 2013 09:22. Posts 344

xposted from 2+2

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19/...what-chances-wasnt-collusion-1379487/

9 handed PLO 5/5 games half amateurs/half pros.

The two suspects are "Al" and "Bob" [not real names], both pros that play in L.A primarily (LATB?) and vegas. Al has recently started coming to play the game, and has done well in his ~10 sessions. Probably best PLO player in game. Bob is his friend from L.A that came to play the game, its his 3rd time here. They are close enough friends to show each other their cards during hands and often take breaks together and go outside to parking lot together to do w/e.

I was in the must move game, when the two were in the main game when they are accused of collusion by the "Carl" [whale] in the game ( has accused people over the years so less merit to it). But from what I was told about the hand (i'll post more indepth if needed once i confirm get all the facts straight), it seemed suspicious but I was giving them the benefit of the break and didnt inquiry further.

heres the hand in question. Sorry I dont remember the exact details, but it shouldnt matter, as the important ones will be included.

Al is SB and is in the middle of getting a massage ($4000), Bob is BB ($500). Hero ($3500) $25 preflop, 6 ways

Flop ($150)
Qh Xh Xx
Checks around

Turn ($150)
[Qh Xh Xx] 9h
Checks around

River ($150)
[Qh Xh Xx 9h] 5s (Ace high hearts is nuts, no SF possibilities)

Al deliberates for 5 secs and checks, Bob bets $120, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, Al takes 30 secs while playing with his $100 chips, then puts out six $5 chips on top of six $100 chips and drops it in front of line. Instantly as it happens, Bob blurts out "Naked" (Loud enough for the whole table to hear). Then he says "Oh, you raised? I thought you were calling, I fold". Hero turns to them and say "Did u say what i thought u said... cause that is definitely going to influence my action" Neither says anything. Hero tanks for 30 seconds, and flats with KhThXX. Al shows AhJhxx

Hero asks Bob "What did u mean by naked?" Al follows suit and asks Bob as well. Bob doesn't say anything. Rest of table start looking towards one another with a "really? did that just happen?" face. 10 mins pass, Bob says gets ready to rack up and says he's playing his last hand. Al then turns to his masseuse and asks her if she can stop, then goes to the restroom while Bob is cashing out. They both get back onto the floor at same time, and then head out to the parking lot together. Rest of table begin talking about the hand, and all agree that it looks like very blatant collusion, and informs the floor.

So i wanted to get outside people's thoughts, especially from PLO players because im fairly new to PLO

Is it purely coincidental that Al checks the nuts (feasible IMO)
Bob, who has played relatively tight, seems to know what he's doing, be betting without any big hearts blockers in his hand, into a 6 way pot on the river, and then not realizing Al had put chips out to raise, and happens to say "naked" at the simultaneous time.

side note , several other players in the game said they'd have reraised in hero's spot, therefore had it happen to someone else in the game it'd have resulted in a 7k pot...

Cliff notes TLDR

Two friends are in plo game, suspected of collusion. Hand history provided.

Thanks.

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NMcNasty    United States. Oct 11 2013 12:48. Posts 2039

So the implication is that by saying "naked" Bob is pretending to have the naked ace of hearts, and therefore generate a call (or raise) from hero who likely has a smaller flush, when he knows his friend Al can have nothing but the nut ace high flush?

It all just seems a bit elaborate.

Its probably not a bad idea to bring the issue up just to put the players are on notice, but Bob could easily just be some fish saying "naked" because his hand is nothing. There's really nothing the floor can do.


YoMeR   United States. Oct 11 2013 17:00. Posts 12435

it would be "blatant" if bob was deeper and put in a min raise with hero in between them LOL

eZ Life. 

YoMeR   United States. Oct 11 2013 17:01. Posts 12435

I wouldn't be too convinced of collusion in that hand really...but I would assume they are scumbags for the double hit n run for that game and they clearly are in cahoots with each other in some way....maybe more likely a staking deal of some sorts perhaps or what not

eZ Life. 

Raidan   United States. Oct 11 2013 17:19. Posts 344


  On October 11 2013 11:48 NMcNasty wrote:
So the implication is that by saying "naked" Bob is pretending to have the naked ace of hearts, and therefore generate a call (or raise) from hero who likely has a smaller flush, when he knows his friend Al can have nothing but the nut ace high flush?

It all just seems a bit elaborate.

Its probably not a bad idea to bring the issue up just to put the players are on notice, but Bob could easily just be some fish saying "naked" because his hand is nothing. There's really nothing the floor can do.



another guy asked this

1. Are Bob's and Al's lines feasible (I don't play PLO, so no idea) with their respective hands, or would they only be taken in conjunction with each other?

2. How often would someone say "Naked.." at showdown in Bob's spot (assuming he fired into the field and got called in 2 spots) and mean anything else than I have A but no flush?


And I'm asking because me and other regs basically run this game, and currently they are 86'ed (combined with incident prior w/ the whale and these two). Though in both situations Al technically did nothing wrong, so if people dont think its collusion Al might be allowed back. 0 chance bob comes back.

 Last edit: 11/10/2013 17:22

Raidan   United States. Oct 11 2013 17:21. Posts 344


  On October 11 2013 16:01 YoMeR wrote:
I wouldn't be too convinced of collusion in that hand really...but I would assume they are scumbags for the double hit n run for that game and they clearly are in cahoots with each other in some way....maybe more likely a staking deal of some sorts perhaps or what not



neither hit and ran. Bob who said naked picked up shortly after, Al stopped his massage to go walk out with Bob for 10 minutes.


Daut    United States. Oct 12 2013 00:45. Posts 8955

clear collusion imo. naked means one thing and one thing only. combined with everything else going on between them im convinced, but its probably not enough for a floor to overturn the hand or something

NewbSaibot: 18 TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. Because FUCK YOU, Daut 

NMcNasty    United States. Oct 13 2013 11:20. Posts 2039


  On October 11 2013 16:19 Raidan wrote:
Show nested quote +



another guy asked this

1. Are Bob's and Al's lines feasible (I don't play PLO, so no idea) with their respective hands, or would they only be taken in conjunction with each other?



Perfectly feasible. Bob is taking a stab, Al is just checkraising the nuts. Its hard to imagine that Bob's bet was somehow planned, and if there was collusion, why not bet turn to build a pot?


 
2. How often would someone say "Naked.." at showdown in Bob's spot (assuming he fired into the field and got called in 2 spots) and mean anything else than I have A but no flush?



I assumed Bob was a fish at first due to stack size and not being a regular, but I reread again and saw you specified that he was an out of town pro. So not very likely he would get that wrong :[. But he might have misread his hand and thought he had Ah when he had the Ad or something, or he could be lying about what he thought was a showdown in order to pretend he was merely dry ace bluffing as opposed to just making some crazy stab.

I'm not sure what casino rules are exactly. Can two players be forced to not play against each other merely by being suspected of collusion? It seems like they should be. It's just a spot where there's little the floor can do, but is still shady enough that it absolutely should not be ignored.


Skoal   Canada. Oct 15 2013 00:15. Posts 460

seems very likely they are splitting action fully and bob tried to take things into his own hands to make the team some more money

(either induce the button to call/raise)

the thing is though...if he really did think that AL just flatted on the river then it could definitely be a little lie to act like he was bluffing with Ah as neither of them should ever have Ah in their hands when they both call river.

either way their actions post-hand are what is really telling to me in this scenario. anyone who wasn't guilty would realize and definitely want to talk about it / clear their name in the moment...not just leave the game

it really doesn't seem like it was calculated during the hand, more like Bob just getting greedy for the team, which is probably what Al scolded him about outside.


TimDawg    United States. Oct 15 2013 07:49. Posts 10197

Seems closer to an angle than collusion imo

Still a very scummy thing to do and it's obvious they are at least sharing action and possibly have gotten away with similar things before. I don't think the floor would do anything in this case most of the time. When playing at a casino you can just never trust anything someone says and have to assume most people are capable of angles/collusion

online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinballLast edit: 19/10/2013 18:29

asdf2000   United States. Oct 18 2013 00:59. Posts 7690

lol am I the only one that finds this hilarious

this isn't remotely provable as collusion so if it is it's next lvl

Grindin so hard, Im smashin pussies left and right. 

player999   Brasil. Oct 18 2013 03:12. Posts 7978

most obvious collusion of all time, I'm extremely surprised anyone thinks otherwise

Browsing through your hand histories makes me wonder that you might not be aware these games are possibly play money. Have you ever tried to cash out? - Kapol 

looserSR   Slovakia. Oct 20 2013 12:43. Posts 95

collusion, dont allow those faggots to play there again


traxamillion   United States. Oct 21 2013 04:32. Posts 10468

Agree it is more of an angle than collusion; collusion indicates two people working together. Bob just made the move on his own and it was more of a trick than anything having to do with cards. Obviously hero was suspicious because he simply flatted. Just grimy table talk.

Reminds me of Matt dillion and norton in rounders where Matt doesn't need to cheat to beat the cop game but worm gets greedy and screws them


Raidan   United States. Oct 21 2013 07:41. Posts 344


  On October 21 2013 03:32 traxamillion wrote:
Agree it is more of an angle than collusion; collusion indicates two people working together. Bob just made the move on his own and it was more of a trick than anything having to do with cards. Obviously hero was suspicious because he simply flatted. Just grimy table talk.

Reminds me of Matt dillion and norton in rounders where Matt doesn't need to cheat to beat the cop game but worm gets greedy and screws them



In order for bob to make the move on his own, he needs to know Al has the nuts and isnt pulling the naked ace bluff himself.


n0rthf4ce    United States. Oct 23 2013 16:14. Posts 8119

collusion

www.cardrunners.com 

PoorUser    United States. Oct 24 2013 23:20. Posts 7471

add another one to collusion. ban them both

Gambler Emeritus 

Jamie217   Canada. Oct 25 2013 22:04. Posts 4351


  On October 23 2013 15:14 n0rthf4ce wrote:
collusion


JonnyCosMo   United States. Oct 28 2013 18:00. Posts 7292

I mean... Hero seems like a retard to believe that Al is bluffing with anything but the Ah in his hand. I tend to ignore everything people say to me during the hand caz too many people live try to angleshoot etc...

Just seems like Hero is QQing about making a terrible call. Just my 2 cents -_-;;

Everyone needs to see that you are king of the castle - PoorUser 

JonnyCosMo   United States. Oct 28 2013 18:01. Posts 7292

It's more of an angle shoot than collusion imo. Bob clearly has a read that Al has the nuts, and is just trying to fuck the Hero in this hand. If they chopping the money later on the side, it's clear collusion, but most likely this is not the case, and it's just Bob shoot an angle.This hand takes place in LA where everyone is a massive scumbag angle shooter, this shit should be expected...

Everyone needs to see that you are king of the castle - PoorUserLast edit: 28/10/2013 18:04

 
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