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Live 5/5 Cash Game Hand

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DarkestJulys   United States. Feb 11 2013 03:55. Posts 8

Hey all,

Just got home from my first live 5/5 NL cash session (been playing a lot of live 1/2 cash in the past few months)... got a hand I'd like to discuss. Let me know if I leave out any needed details.

Preflop:
Dealt 8c 8s in BB.
UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2, and UTG+4 limp in.
SB checks.
I check (to mix things up since I'd been consistently raising medium+ pocket pairs).
$30 in the pot.

Flop:
8d 9d 10c

SB bets $45.
I raise to $150.
UTG+1 folds.
UTG+2 shoves with $450.
UTG+4 folds.
SB tanks for a few minutes, then shoves with $1800.

My stack is $750 at this point..

Player Reads:
--Me: my table image is likely a tight-aggressive player who is willing to make big folds and medium-ish bluffs beyond c-bets (I got 2 bluffs called).
--SB: Tight-aggressive player, much more on the tight side than me. Made a very questionable river shove that ended up getting paid off earlier against a weak player (queen high flush on a paired board). Seems to consistently raise preflop with medium+ pocket pairs.
--UTG+2: Extremely tight player who has not played many pots.


Will post my decision and the outcome after discussion.

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 Last edit: 11/02/2013 04:05

wolfheart   Estonia. Feb 11 2013 04:20. Posts 7592

u cant fold it .. 450+150+75+750=1425 in pot 750 to call. Even if he has 76 jq. U are 35% to win with set. But in live u are much much more often head board texture like this

Never give up. 

TimDawg    United States. Feb 11 2013 09:20. Posts 10197

I'd always raise preflop

Also would consider just flatting flop even though there are lots of bad turns for your hand. I mean it's a limped pot, you say SB is pretty tight, and he's over betting the pot into 4 other people

online bob is actually a pretty smart person, not at all like the creepy fucker that sits in the sofa telling me he does nasty shit to me when im asleep - pinball 

rememp   Canada. Feb 11 2013 15:28. Posts 480

I think you have to call, even though qj is likely you're getting a good price.


JonnyCosMo   United States. Feb 11 2013 15:55. Posts 7292

Once u raise flop I dont think u can fold, it's extremely unlikely you are oversetted here...

As TimDawg said thou, I raise preflop here 100%, this "mixing it up" bullshit is basically saying "I decided to play this bad because hodor hurr hurr" Post-flop I think flatting flop is definitely a better option here with your hand on that board.

Everyone needs to see that you are king of the castle - PoorUserLast edit: 11/02/2013 15:57

DarkestJulys   United States. Feb 11 2013 17:53. Posts 8

Agreed that not raising preflop is what caused this predicament in the first place.

Can you explain why I should have just called the flop? Given just limp and flop lead, we are looking at straight and flush draws (most likely either together or with a pair), 2 pair, or a made straight, with a very small chance of a bigger set. My reasoning for raising was to narrow down which of these he likely has, and eliminate/give a very bad price for the rest of the players to stay in the hand with a draw. So I guess you are saying I should call, and then depending on turn and river I have an easy chance to fold depending on action?


JonnyCosMo   United States. Feb 12 2013 05:03. Posts 7292

Ugggg just wrote out a long, really good, well written explanation as to why I wouldn't raise the flop.

Then i misclick closed browser effff

Just don't raise flop -_-; trust me.

Everyone needs to see that you are king of the castle - PoorUser 

DarkestJulys   United States. Feb 12 2013 05:18. Posts 8

Same thing happened to me when I initially made this thread lol... I ended up typing it up again :3

If you can find the patience to rewrite it, it won't fall on deaf ears~


By the way, the outcome:

I call. SB flips over 67o. Turn and River: no diamonds, no paired board. UTG+1 mucks. I'm felted but just stuck one $360 buyin, feel shitty because it was my first game at higher stakes than 1/2.

Happy ending is that after a pondering smoke, I bought back in with $360 and cashed out $1700 after the game broke after 3 more hours of play.


mnj   United States. Feb 12 2013 19:13. Posts 3848

i think preflop limp is fine,


careface_   Canada. Feb 12 2013 20:03. Posts 788

raise preflop, what?

please give me 2-3 good reasons to raise preflop, i'll then give you 5-6 bad reasons..

so why do you raise preflop and what sizing you do.

 Last edit: 13/02/2013 14:38

careface_   Canada. Feb 12 2013 20:07. Posts 788

also, flop is a flat, if you are gonna raise tho, it's maybe a call after that, depends on stack sizes/maths.. but I am never, oh never happy in calling.

anyway, I still want to hear good arguments in raising preflop, all I see is us burning money.


DarkestJulys   United States. Feb 13 2013 02:56. Posts 8


  On February 12 2013 19:03 careface_ wrote:
raise preflop, what?

please give me 2-3 good reasons to raise preflop, i'll then give you 5-6 bad reasons..

so please explain why you raise preflop and what sizing you do.



Here's my reasoning, I'd like to hear what you disagree with.

If I'm looking at 88 in the BB with 4 limpers (at least half of which are very tight), my standard move would be throwing in 5-6xBB. Unless UTG and UTG+1 both happen to have limped in with strong hands or make odd calls, we'll be left mostly with smaller pocket pairs and non-premium hands like KQ, AJ, AT on the flop. A pair like 88 is high enough that any higher pocket pair, especially with the aggressive preflop players at the table, is almost entirely ruled out.

Now the flop comes down. Unless it's full of high cards or dripping wet we are likely in the lead and many boards will allow us to win the pot with a c-bet right there. If the c-bet is called we proceed as usual and are ahead of draws, and of course if we hit a set we are golden, and if the board does not permit a c-bet and there's a sizable bet we can fold and just lose the preflop raise.


careface_   Canada. Feb 13 2013 18:45. Posts 788


 

Here's my reasoning, I'd like to hear what you disagree with.

If I'm looking at 88 in the BB with 4 limpers (at least half of which are very tight), my standard move would be throwing in 5-6xBB. Unless UTG and UTG+1 both happen to have limped in with strong hands or make odd calls, we'll be left mostly with smaller pocket pairs and non-premium hands like KQ, AJ, AT on the flop. A pair like 88 is high enough that any higher pocket pair, especially with the aggressive preflop players at the table, is almost entirely ruled out.

Now the flop comes down. Unless it's full of high cards or dripping wet we are likely in the lead and many boards will allow us to win the pot with a c-bet right there. If the c-bet is called we proceed as usual and are ahead of draws, and of course if we hit a set we are golden, and if the board does not permit a c-bet and there's a sizable bet we can fold and just lose the preflop raise.



Ok, i'll go point by point to show you my view of the situation, we can discuss about it then.



  If I'm looking at 88 in the BB with 4 limpers (at least half of which are very tight), my standard move would be throwing in 5-6xBB


Ok. What are you trying to do? Build the pot? If you throw out 5-6xBB you are looking at a 6 way pot (4 limpers+the SB which will never fold after all those calls). Just making sure you realize nobody will fold. If you get limp reraised, you gotta fold and thus lose the opportunity to set mine and stack someone who has only top pair.

If you are building the pot in order to be sure to stack someone, you don't need to raise for this. There will be 30$ in the pot, you aren't really deep (750$ isn't deep at all), you will stack anyone with top pair for your stack if you play it well and just check your BB. So you do not need to raise in this spot to assure yourself to stack someone if you hit your set. (this isnt deep 500bb poker)


  Unless UTG and UTG+1 both happen to have limped in with strong hands or make odd calls, we'll be left mostly with smaller pocket pairs and non-premium hands like KQ, AJ, AT on the flop.


The players range will be A LOT wider than that. After UTG and UTG+1 calls, the other players range will almost be any 2. Also, if you raise, and utg and utg+1 also calls, the others will call with any2 again. They are also gonna be attached to their top pair, whatever kicker they got. J high flop, they got J2, prepare to go to war if you want to make them fold.


  A pair like 88 is high enough that any higher pocket pair, especially with the aggressive preflop players at the table, is almost entirely ruled out.


Maybe.. you will still see occasionnal 99 and 1010, and also occasionnal AK/AQ/AJ/A10 limped in, happens more then people think.


  Now the flop comes down. Unless it's full of high cards or dripping wet we are likely in the lead and many boards will allow us to win the pot with a c-bet right there.


Remember we are 6 way on the flop, half of the time there will be higher cards. If they are not higher cards, the board will be very connected. You will have no clue where you stand. I don't know what type of games you play, but in a normal 5-5 game, a c-bet will probably win the pot right there about 15% of the time. Even on a perfect board for your hand.



 
if the board does not permit a c-bet and there's a sizable bet we can fold and just lose the preflop raise.


The board will not permit a c-bet (or at least a profitable cbet) at least 70%+ of the time.

cliffs:
All this said, in the end, if you hit, you can make the same amount of money if you raise preflop or if you flat your BB.
You risk less BB's by simply calling.
Unless the game is really deep (which isn't the case in this 5-5 game - this isnt 10-20NL 500bb deep). The preflop raise only burns money.
If the game is really deep, I like the preflop raise, because you will not always stack a player if you don't build the pot preflop.
Unless you are Rambo, you are gonna be very fit or fold in this spot, oop, with a low/medium pair, vs a large number of oponents (5+, if you raise or if you call, same thing). If your game style is to bully everybody at this limit, and you opt to raise, well good job. But you must swing as hell and those plays aren't necessary to completely crush the game.


that is pretty much all..


 Last edit: 13/02/2013 18:49

DarkestJulys   United States. Feb 13 2013 23:28. Posts 8


  On February 13 2013 17:45 careface_ wrote:
Show nested quote +



Ok, i'll go point by point to show you my view of the situation, we can discuss about it then.



  If I'm looking at 88 in the BB with 4 limpers (at least half of which are very tight), my standard move would be throwing in 5-6xBB


Ok. What are you trying to do? Build the pot? If you throw out 5-6xBB you are looking at a 6 way pot (4 limpers+the SB which will never fold after all those calls). Just making sure you realize nobody will fold. If you get limp reraised, you gotta fold and thus lose the opportunity to set mine and stack someone who has only top pair.

If you are building the pot in order to be sure to stack someone, you don't need to raise for this. There will be 30$ in the pot, you aren't really deep (750$ isn't deep at all), you will stack anyone with top pair for your stack if you play it well and just check your BB. So you do not need to raise in this spot to assure yourself to stack someone if you hit your set. (this isnt deep 500bb poker)


  Unless UTG and UTG+1 both happen to have limped in with strong hands or make odd calls, we'll be left mostly with smaller pocket pairs and non-premium hands like KQ, AJ, AT on the flop.


The players range will be A LOT wider than that. After UTG and UTG+1 calls, the other players range will almost be any 2. Also, if you raise, and utg and utg+1 also calls, the others will call with any2 again. They are also gonna be attached to their top pair, whatever kicker they got. J high flop, they got J2, prepare to go to war if you want to make them fold.


  A pair like 88 is high enough that any higher pocket pair, especially with the aggressive preflop players at the table, is almost entirely ruled out.


Maybe.. you will still see occasionnal 99 and 1010, and also occasionnal AK/AQ/AJ/A10 limped in, happens more then people think.


  Now the flop comes down. Unless it's full of high cards or dripping wet we are likely in the lead and many boards will allow us to win the pot with a c-bet right there.


Remember we are 6 way on the flop, half of the time there will be higher cards. If they are not higher cards, the board will be very connected. You will have no clue where you stand. I don't know what type of games you play, but in a normal 5-5 game, a c-bet will probably win the pot right there about 15% of the time. Even on a perfect board for your hand.



 
if the board does not permit a c-bet and there's a sizable bet we can fold and just lose the preflop raise.


The board will not permit a c-bet (or at least a profitable cbet) at least 70%+ of the time.

cliffs:
All this said, in the end, if you hit, you can make the same amount of money if you raise preflop or if you flat your BB.
You risk less BB's by simply calling.
Unless the game is really deep (which isn't the case in this 5-5 game - this isnt 10-20NL 500bb deep). The preflop raise only burns money.
If the game is really deep, I like the preflop raise, because you will not always stack a player if you don't build the pot preflop.
Unless you are Rambo, you are gonna be very fit or fold in this spot, oop, with a low/medium pair, vs a large number of oponents (5+, if you raise or if you call, same thing). If your game style is to bully everybody at this limit, and you opt to raise, well good job. But you must swing as hell and those plays aren't necessary to completely crush the game.


that is pretty much all..





Thanks for the response. I likely don't have as much experience playing and analyzing as you do, but I do have an issue with your argument: you seem to be assuming that most of the time, everyone (out of 4 limpers) is going to call a $30 raise from the BB. If they do, I agree the situation from there isn't great. But, that is simply not the case unless the table is loose/fishy (and I mentioned that this table was tight). UTG isn't going to call unless he limped in with a strong hand since 3 people are reacting to my raise behind him. I would say that 60-70% of the time UTG is going to fold to this raise. From there, UTG+1 is also likely to fold even if UTG calls. It's only until we get to the other two limpers that calls start becoming likely (but their expected hand strength decreases too due to position which goes against that effect).

I think a realistic average number of players to see the flop after a 5-6xBB bet in this situation can't be more than 3. That opens us up for profitable C-bets on a lot of boards (on reasonable boards, we're looking at max 50% someone hits a pair that beats 88?), builds the pot to set us up for if we hit a set (I agree with you though that this point is debatable), and on some boards we have good showdown value on small/draw boards if we make it to showdown since flat calls preflop with higher pocket pairs is unlikely (9s maybe, but 10s+... I disagree that we are often going to see good players limp and call with that). I should note that this 5/5 game is tighter and higher skilled than a typical 2/5 at a casino since it's a local poker room.

If we get slapped with a big re-raise, we assess the situation and fold under most circumstances, being okay with sacrificing the lost 11% set probability in exchange for the arguably higher expected value we see in other situations.

And yeah, I do play fairly aggressively (hopefully smartly so) and swing, unless I'm playing with fish (in which case I play extremely tight and still swing due to fish-induced variance).

If what I wrote is completely off, hopefully someone can point out flaws. Sorry if I'm polluting the forum, I'm sure most of you guys are much more experienced than me.

 Last edit: 14/02/2013 02:06

basementkid   . Feb 14 2013 04:03. Posts 191

Some people pointed out some really good points about the hand.
1. I originally thought I would never check preflop I would always raise, then I realized this isn't true. I think that there is some real merit to checking to set mine and play the hand that way. If you raise you put yourself in some really awkward spots. lots of the games I play in have people who either a.) Think your making some move and might raise or they call and b.) start a chain reaction of every calling. With your stack size I don't understand why you would wanna bloat the pot pre-flop when you can for sure get it in on the flop 6 ways.
2. On the flop I would almost for sure flat behind the bet. Because of your stack if you raise you can never fold it is just a horrible stop. If for some reason you flat a guy raises and another shoves you leave yourself a chance to make a hero fold. With the flat you also seem to keep hands in that you want to get value from. If you raise you have a chance to look very strong and fold some combo draws. My thinking here might be way off let me know.


KeyleK_uk   United Kingdom. Feb 16 2013 06:28. Posts 1687

def flat the flop unless real good reason not to

poker is soooo much easier when you flop setsLast edit: 24/02/2013 16:12

goose58   United States. Feb 16 2013 21:58. Posts 871

In my limited experience playing live, players are nits. PF check is fine, and I think flop is a fold with your current reads. It's super close, and most likely a slightly losing play to get in here, but definitely not a big mistake.


 



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