Live overbetting

Having not played live since May of last year I'm a bit rusty. My favorite 1/2 game runs pretty big. Avg buyin is $500, avg preflop raise is $20+ etc. I am trying to buy in for $200 and it's putting me in a lot of awkward situations. Hands like AQs, KQo, 88, JTs, all become trouble hands for me. It doesnt seem like you should be flatting $20 raises from any position here, nor does it seem like you can 3bet to $60+. But I know players arent only raising QQ+ here so I'm not sure how to proceed against such overbetting. Should I just man up and play it like a 2/5 game so things make sense to me? Or should I treat it like a shortstack game and just look for opportunities to shove?

side note: my buddy's girlfriend was playing one day, and despite how everyone else was raising, she continued to make her open raise 3xBB+1/limper and was killing it. So that means she'd raise $6 utg with AK and seemed to do just fine postflop and make plenty of money anyway. Meanwhile I'm raising $20 with KJs, getting called by 4 players and stuck having to check/fold or cbet half my stack away on a prayer.

Thoughts?

your buddy's girlfriend had the right idea apparently.

stop making 20$ raises w/ hands that are frequently going to be dominated. if u have aa and raise $20 expecting to get 4 callers that's one thing, but if u have kj that's another.

play tighter in general vs open raises and open raising yourself.

play much much looser w/ your 3bets vs large opens.

tighten up to 3b value range with that size you can be folding and waiting for the nuts

complain people raise to 20bb. Raise 20bb kj.

On February 01 2013 07:22 LemOn[5thF] wrote: complain people raise to 20bb. Raise 20bb kj.

lol, well it's because I do it for different reasons than they do. Fish overbet to "protect their hand". I do it for value. KJ is a value hand vs these players in my opinion. Everyone has told me that I should play as exploitably as possible vs fish, and raise as big as they're willing to call. I just dont know what to do postflop

But you know, much like that girl, my original sessions years ago consisted of 3BB raises and I always did fine then too. It allows me to expand my range and play less exploitably, and puts me back in my comfort zone which is at least good for something.

On February 01 2013 07:22 LemOn[5thF] wrote: complain people raise to 20bb. Raise 20bb kj.

On February 01 2013 10:16 NewbSaibot wrote: Show nested quote + On February 01 2013 07:22 LemOn[5thF] wrote: complain people raise to 20bb. Raise 20bb kj. lol, well it's because I do it for different reasons than they do. Fish overbet to "protect their hand". I do it for value. KJ is a value hand vs these players in my opinion. Everyone has told me that I should play as exploitably as possible vs fish, and raise as big as they're willing to call. I just dont know what to do postflop But you know, much like that girl, my original sessions years ago consisted of 3BB raises and I always did fine then too. It allows me to expand my range and play less exploitably, and puts me back in my comfort zone which is at least good for something.

You should accept that in such a game there is going to be a lot of swings. Do not fear this. You have a higher edge but the variance is also much higher. (Btw, if you cannot deal with this, just don't play.)

If you can't deal with variance just fold everything and setmine and 3bet call QQ+ the variance will be very low and it's guaranteed +ev when they raise so big

On February 01 2013 04:06 MARSHALL28 wrote: your buddy's girlfriend had the right idea apparently. stop making 20$ raises w/ hands that are frequently going to be dominated. if u have aa and raise $20 expecting to get 4 callers that's one thing, but if u have kj that's another. play tighter in general vs open raises and open raising yourself. play much much looser w/ your 3bets vs large opens.

this, and yes to both of your questions: treat it like a 2/5 game to make more sense of it, and recognize that since it's playing deeper, if you're buying in for $200 then you're gonna have to adjust for being effectively shortstacked. that's also fine, you can pick up a ton of dead money in games like this when you get in spots like a loose open to 20 and 4 callers and you have 200 total with anything half-decent, you can just shove there and feel good about it all day. 77+ KQ+ or more or less hands, whatever you think is good given how loose all the bets are. just don't hit and run, though i imagine that goes without saying.

also look for spots to limp/3bet, with the same idea - that you're doing it looser vs the larger opens + the deadmoney calls. so for example, limp/shove your 200 utg with AQ when there's a loose raiser in one of the seats to your left and then there are some loose callers behind him also. but be willing to abandon this plan when you can tell that it's not the right spot, there's no shame in limp/folding AQ if you just get the sense that somebody has woken up with a strong hand. and if you do limp and just see a multiway limped flop that's not the end of the world either - just check/fold most of the time and move on.

opening smaller like your friend's girlfriend is not necessarily better or worse. there are plenty of situations in which opening smaller can be advantageous, as can opening larger. in general, you want to raise as large as you can to get the right kind of action for your range. so for example if there are like 4 limpers and you're in the hijack and, given the way the game is going, you are expecting to showdown your hand and play a bloated pot, then you should only be raising valuable hands and just limping your speculative hands. this calls for a bigger raise and tighter range. however, on the other hand, if there are 4 limps and you're in the hijack but the game is extremely weak/passive and people are folding a lot preflop and/or check/folding 2nd-pair and worse on the flop, then your raising range here should consist of quite a few more hands and your sizing should be a bit smaller.

another way of looking at it is to say that, the more you expect to make your profits from actually showing down your hands and winning money by not over-valuing dominated holdings/2nd-best hands, the more you should be raising bigger and with a tighter range. on the other side of the spectrum, the more you expect to make your profits from just taking down dead money because people are folding too much, the more you should raise with a wider range that includes a variety of hands, and also size on the smaller side.

when your game is kindof a combination of both, like.....people NEVER fold anything preflop but ALWAYS fold anything worse than top pair postflop, then you should have a wide preflop raising range AND a large preflop raise size. that doesn't happen too often but you'll see it sometimes.

Just want to say thanks Myth, I have been reading this post several times a day since I made this thread. Very helpful.

So what do you guys mean by 3betting light? Like what are some examples of when you would 3bet light playing half-stacked in a loose live fishy game?

depends. if you're shoving, you can go lighter, like KQ, 66, etc. you should do some studying of your allin equity vs 1, 2, and 3 ranges to figure out what's appropriate for various circumstances. make sure you know how to do some basic EV calculations when accounting for your fold equity. when the possibly dead money in the pot is about half your effective stack, like when there's 100 out there and you only have 200 to shove, then sometimes you can really shove very wide and show a profit. it depends how often people are entering the pot in the first place, and how often they're calling your shove, obviously.

so i can't really answer your question except to give you some possible boundaries. while there's not really such a thing as a "minimum" hand you should ever 3bet with, because it's always theoretically possible that you'll have enough fold equity to make 3betting any 2 profitable, i'd venture to guess that, under common circumstances, you should probably be 3betting AT and KJ with a somewhat regular frequency. hands like 22 and TT are case-by-case, because with 22 you have to compare a 3bet versus what could potentially be a hugely +EV call to setmine, and with TT you have to compare a setmine vs. what might be a strongly +EV shove for value. however, AT and KJ are not hands that you'd ever really be shoving for value or calling to get a lot of speculative value, so they're hands that you're gonna pretty much always 3bet or fold, and when you do 3bet you're doing it because you're expecting to have a lot of fold equity and if you're forced to get allin preflop then so be it (assuming you're short). i hope that makes sense.

so 3betting light in these types of games rarely means 3betting 87s, but it does occasionally. basically if you're getting close to 100% confident that you'll get everyone to fold preflop, then these types of hands become more profitable to 3bet rather than calling to speculate. however, it often means 3betting KJ, AT, and sometimes 22, TT. i'd also categorize A2s, KT, QJs, etc, in the same category of "rare but sometimes good to 3bet" as 87s - you're just looking for spots where you have a LOT of fold equity and so you're willing to just eat it when you are forced to get it in preflop or something.

Still reading this thread on a regular basis. I'd say turning this game into a 2/5 game has really made things click a lot better. My 3bet range feels appropriate, my opening size, my cbet frequency etc. Now instead of being paralyzed that someone called a massive 10BB raise from ep and that I cant do anything postflop without the nuts, I can play confidently and take stabs and c/f without hesitation etc. It just feels normal now. You're up to "full stacked" status after winning a couple of hands anyway.

Ok so I've run into a frequent phenomenon that I havent given much thought about until now, and that is donkbetting. Lately I've noticed that players are donkbetting A LOT, and it's throwing me off my game. It doesnt seem to matter what position I raise from or how much I raise, I almost always get donkbet between 1/3 to 1/2 pot. It's not just me specifically, they're doing it to everyone. As best as I can tell these seem to be "feeler" bets, i.e. someone limped utg with A7o, calls a raise, and then leads out on a AT6r flop. They also tend to do this a lot with draws to "build a pot". My question is should there be anything I specifically do to combat this? I mean generally speaking they're allowing me to play perfectly, i.e. saving me from cbetting KQ high because they have announced their hand so I can comfortably fold.

Is the best line probably to just fold when I miss, unless I have some super specific reason to raise/bluff? And of course, raise when I hit TPGK?

The other issue I'm having is whether or not I'm overplaying hands. My first assumption of most live players is that they're calling stations chasing any draw or mid pair+. So as long as I think the draw hasnt got there yet, I feel I should continue betting. However it's obviously much easier to barrel QQ on a J25 board than a JT7 since there's less liklihood of a draw hitting. Should I sometimes slowdown with TP+ even if I suspect an opponent is on a draw, to protect myself from the times they either already hit and are trapping me, or if I'm just going to inflate the pot with such implied odds that my opponent is compelled to call and then I have to make a crying fold on the river or some such?

On February 20 2013 15:23 NewbSaibot wrote: As best as I can tell these seem to be "feeler" bets, i.e. someone limped utg with A7o, calls a raise, and then leads out on a AT6r flop. They also tend to do this a lot with draws to "build a pot". My question is should there be anything I specifically do to combat this?

this is a good read of what people have, a medium hand, but not exactly what their intention is. they may or may not be making a "feeler" bet, but the more important thing to remember is that many of them can't be bluff-raised in these spots anyway, because they won't be folding hands like A7 on AT6. whether or not somebody will fold after leading like this and facing a raise is mostly a matter of feel, but there are 2 things to consider: (1) the bigger the pot is, the more likely they are to fold, by a moderate amount, and (2) the later the street is, the more likely they are to fold, by a moderate amount. so when somebody donkbets the FLOP, especially when there's not a ton of money out there yet, you'll have a harder time making them fold. but if they check-call, check-call, donkbet 1/3pot on river, you'll be more likely to make them fold. but remember, these factors aren't always a huge influence. if somebody is really spewy and stationy in the first place, then even the most ideal spot to raise their donkbet still might not get you a fold.

Is the best line probably to just fold when I miss, unless I have some super specific reason to raise/bluff? And of course, raise when I hit TPGK?

this is hard to say, because pots are so rarely hu. when there are players behind and you're not too sure that raising would make the donk-bettor fold, then yes, generally just fold unless you can raise for value. but if there's nobody behind, you should raise with equity sometimes, especially if you feel that continuing to bet on later streets may get a fold eventually. being in position and deep with a flush draw is one of the best situations to raise a donkbet like this. however, it's not always optimal to raise with a FD here, even IP and deep. just remember: if there are other people, play straightforward/value-oriented mostly, but if there is nobody else, then sometimes you should work on a bluff if there are multiple good reasons for it.

The other issue I'm having is whether or not I'm overplaying hands. My first assumption of most live players is that they're calling stations chasing any draw or mid pair+. So as long as I think the draw hasnt got there yet, I feel I should continue betting. However it's obviously much easier to barrel QQ on a J25 board than a JT7 since there's less liklihood of a draw hitting. Should I sometimes slowdown with TP+ even if I suspect an opponent is on a draw, to protect myself from the times they either already hit and are trapping me, or if I'm just going to inflate the pot with such implied odds that my opponent is compelled to call and then I have to make a crying fold on the river or some such?

it's far better to just err on the side of value betting against these types of players. always remember that when you're bloating the pot for value, sometimes you're gonna get trapped or get called by a monster hand that is scared for no good reason. but with these types, you have to deal with that, because constantly bloating the pots as much as you can for value is the better policy. use your feel in every situation and when you can make specific reads, then of course slow down and don't spew into a better hand. but remember, there's almost NEVER a situation where you should slow down purely because the board has extra draws on it. JT7 and J25 should be played the same way right now, in almost all situations - try to get a significant amount of value right now. if the turn makes the board JT78 then of course you can pot control more often than J258, but that doesn't mean you should start off by playing JT7 any differently from J25.

hope that made sense

+1 To Corwin always willing to help