Live 2/4€ cash game with QQ

In this particular hand i was on small blind with everyone covered with about 500€ (yay saturday !)
But i can't get this hand out of my head... So here's the story :

BB had around 420ish
MP2 198
Button 450ish ?

2 guys limped, i raised with QQ to 20€ (had a strong image and the 2 others hands where i raised to 20 lately have made them all fold).BB call, same with the 2 limpers (1 MP2 and 1 OTB). Guess I should've raised more ?

Board is T95r, i lead out 44€ (Once again they were almost all passive lately so i didn't feel like betting 60 or 80ish, the guy on my left seemed to play tight passive but sometime tricky, MP2 i didn't have a lot of reads sadly, and finally the buton was playing pure abc).

BB calls, MP2 Raise to allin to 178€, buton folds. Me ?!?

Ended up folding because the guy on my left (the big blind) didn't stop to move his leg like he was happy. And i felt like calling 178 was just too much for my taste since i didn't see the MP2 playing a lot of hands. BB folded too.

And then the mp2 showed only one T (he mucked the other hand).

Basically i had no reads. Was it wise to let it go or should i have called it ? I really can't think he had a set here :/ Was frustrated all my way home.

Easiest call ever. Guy had 50bbs live, thats like 30bbs online. Preflop should be bigger because its live and everyone think 'omg pot odds' when they see calls in front of them, so if they want to put in money behind then obviously get them to put in more.
This hand would be a lot more annoying if bb and you were like 1k effective and mp jams for like 400 on the flop and you have absolutely no reads on either of them.

Theres a lot of physical reads you can learn to develop too as you play more live. Is mp really really old? Is bb really old? Are they overly distracted by the TV/super disinterested in the pot/dont remember they still have cards? Do they look like they're there to have fun or to make money?

This isnt gonna be what you want to hear but it kinda sounds like you're scared money here to be honest and you should probably move down if theres a smaller game. If nothing else you'll get to see more of the shit people decide to enter pots with

preflop is fine.
flop , bet 60 and call.
and yes , you look scared money

Indeed, i do really look scared money. Both BB and MP guys were youngish (25 max ?), i don't know it's hard to judge, and yes you can learn a lot from looking at them. The MP2 didn't seem like a reg, at least i've never seen him around before so yeah like i said i had absolutely no reads on him.
The BB guys was somewhat a reg, but didn't seem like a solid's one, i mean i don't know if he's playing tricky or if he's just dumb (now that i said it, i remember him getting the straight on the river and still calling my little bet on 1 hand, where i didn't show any strength at all).

Sadly this is the only casino i could play near my home. I'm playing scared money for now because my br is very fucking tight for this limit (if not way underolled). But i don't care if I lose them all. I just want to play a little more if I can. For me this MP2 guy seemed to represent only a set from this board and the way he was looking at us / the way he was putting his money in front of him after the BB called like it was nothing. Guess i was wrong

I'm still having a blast by playing Live though.

Playing less than 100bbs helps if you're playing scared money.

you think he only reps a set?
he probably had K10/A10 and did this for value,it's not like he was folding any turn with so little money in his stack. Also ppl often slowplay sets like mad when stacks are shallow

TPTK and better is simply the nuts in livegames, especially for 100 bbs. openraising to 6-7 bigblinds (or 6+1.5 per limper or so) shouldnt be bad either.

so yeah. your fold was bad I guess

lol raising to 4 bb preflop is NOT fine with two limpers in the pot while out of position, u might as well complete ur blind and setmine (obv horrible; don't do this)

call

Alright. Thanks for your infos guys. Appreciated

On September 02 2012 13:35 2c0ntent wrote: lol raising to 4 bb preflop is NOT fine with two limpers in the pot while out of position, u might as well complete ur blind and setmine (obv horrible; don't do this) call

for some reasons I thought there was only 1 limper.
btw 20/4 = 5

I make it 25 pre , but it obviously depends how loose you are.
I'm quite loose myself so I don't bet half my stack pre

On September 02 2012 21:54 waga wrote: Show nested quote + On September 02 2012 13:35 2c0ntent wrote: lol raising to 4 bb preflop is NOT fine with two limpers in the pot while out of position, u might as well complete ur blind and setmine (obv horrible; don't do this) call for some reasons I thought there was only 1 limper. btw 20/4 = 5 I make it 25 pre , but it obviously depends how loose you are. I'm quite loose myself so I don't bet half my stack pre

dafuq
Suggesting to make pre bigger is obv super standard. No one said to make it fucking 200 pre. Even 40 pre isnt even half of the shortest effective player's stack. Where did you get half your stack pre from.
Its hard to give an idea how big you can go preflop without knowing how the game normally plays. If 40 is glaringly higher than your normal raise, then 40 is probably too big. But if its rather common to see a big raise (40, 50, w/e) from lp/out of blinds then 40 is perfectly reasonable. Just be sure you don't mix up preflop sizings with straddled pots.

Also be sure to know why you make certain raises bigger and why you make certain raises smaller. For example if you have a more marginal opening hand from co or btn, say KJo, KTo, etc. and theres a couple limpers ahead of you, go ahead and open to the higher range like you would with your bigger pairs. Making it say 20, is just going to have it go a million ways and you cant do shit postflop. If you have a hand thats great multiway hand like 22-88 that you probably wont be winning even against 2 other people without a gin board (ie. super dry K73r or flopping a set) then go ahead and make it smaller, make it so it goes a million ways so when you flop a set you have some retard paying you 3 streets with top pair w/e kicker

Dont worry about being balanced live. Even the better regs at low stake NL are bad droolers that get crushed online. Thats why they play live.

lolz.
That's a strategy to beat nl2 online or 1/2$ live in USA.
Live games in europe are different and probably harder.
No competent players raise 7-8bb in europe (without limpers) or change their sizing depending on the strenght of their hand , because it's fucking exploitable.
It's quite common to have 3-4 nl100/200 reg at the table , I've even played 4-5 days with 2 nl1k regs at 1/2€ last month who play just because they enjoy playing some live hands. (no higher limits)
I'm always in shock when I see north american suggesting to make it 10bb pre , because it's live.
Damn I'd love to play in those games ...

Believe me I know my subject , I've played in 3 different countries in europe , probably played 1k+ hours , and made more than 40k€
/brag

All this rant to say that no you can't make funky sizing pre in europe , and yes you need to be balanced.
That being said , with 2 limpers , 5bb is obviously too small.
My " I don't bet half my stack preflop" was obviously an hyperbole ... Oo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

bleh lol I've increased my douchebag skill

You're right, Europe #1. I'm an inbred hick American

Just read the topic again on my mobile phone and i wanted to say it : Nobody would have called that 40€ bet preflop. In fact, all the time i went to my casino, i've seen only 1 time where it was a KK vs AA vs a tricky player. The others 40€ bets have always been followed by a 3bet. They're not good but they're not total newbies either. I'd easily understand if it was a straddled pot but it wasn't.
Did I also mention that the previous raise preflop i made before that one were all fold ? I didn't mention that there was probably at least 1 limper from the 2 times i raised 20€ preflop. Hope it helps.

Its hard to give an idea how big you can go preflop without knowing how the game normally plays. If 40 is glaringly higher than your normal raise, then 40 is probably too big. But if its rather common to see a big raise (40, 50, w/e) from lp/out of blinds then 40 is perfectly reasonable. Just be sure you don't mix up preflop sizings with straddled pots.

40 is just a number I threw out as an example. You basically want to find the high end of the game's raise sizes and use that. I have no idea what that is but it sure as hell cant be 20 OOP. And if you're so confident 40 gets fold around always, then just keep raising 40 with any two from late position and keep picking up all that free dead monies

the kiddie game is across the room at 1/2 NL or the limit games...

this is an extremely easy shove imo. i think it goes shove>>calling>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>folding.

also your flop bet sizing is horrible. you want to set up a bet/bet/shove vs the other 100bb stack as well. WAT ARE YOU DOING YOU HAVE QUEENS.

On September 03 2012 00:14 waga wrote: lolz. That's a strategy to beat nl2 online or 1/2$ live in USA. Live games in europe are different and probably harder. No competent players raise 7-8bb in europe (without limpers) or change their sizing depending on the strenght of their hand , because it's fucking exploitable. It's quite common to have 3-4 nl100/200 reg at the table , I've even played 4-5 days with 2 nl1k regs at 1/2€ last month who play just because they enjoy playing some live hands. (no higher limits) I'm always in shock when I see north american suggesting to make it 10bb pre , because it's live. Damn I'd love to play in those games ... Believe me I know my subject , I've played in 3 different countries in europe , probably played 1k+ hours , and made more than 40k€ /brag All this rant to say that no you can't make funky sizing pre in europe , and yes you need to be balanced. That being said , with 2 limpers , 5bb is obviously too small. My " I don't bet half my stack preflop" was obviously an hyperbole ... Oo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

I think your reasoning is really bad and flawed..you're making a ton of assumptions about the players your playing with. if you have table full of fish and opening to 10x or even 15-20x vs some is perfectly fine..you're getting calls. and if ppl start limp folding to the 7-8x raises...why not open up and punish the limping? etc etc there's a million ways to own teh live noobs.

you've obviously played in a bit tighter games in general or just that standard "everyone limp/folds" and if they get frustrated at u will either limp/call and get raped postflop or do some kinda wierd spazzy plays that will include but not limited to limp/raises or limp/calls then doing something retarded postflop.

"you need to be balanced"

wtf? this is a 2/4 live game. you need to be playing as exploitative as possible. worrying about balance and that stuff will only hurt you vs retards who don't think past what they have or the current street of action.

and wtf high end of the games raises. if they limp folding to big bets then i'll see 6 limpers and raise my bb to 14 bbs and watch them all snap fold and i'll laugh as my hourly has just been tripled.

I like how there's this debate between European players being competent and nobody can show up with less than AA/KK to a larger raise, then said player(s) proceed to check-raise allin with a pair of tens. The fact that villain showed you this card perfectly illustrates why you CAN raise more than 5BB's preflop. If this game has felt tight to you then it's probably just bad timing, i.e. the live fish just havent caught anything worth shoveling money in yet. Even fish get cold-decked. Keep overbetting and whatever preflop and eventually someone will call you with K7s or 66.