Dealing w/ HS swings - Page 3

On August 03 2012 23:47 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 03 2012 12:52 AndrewSong wrote:   On August 03 2012 10:46 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On August 03 2012 04:13 PoorUser wrote:   On August 03 2012 01:56 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On August 02 2012 23:16 PoorUser wrote: same as mid high stakes, mid stakes, low mid stakes, low stakes and microstakes swings. imagine that. And none of you jump on something like this and get all riled up about it? ... This is someone who plays higher stakes being condescending to someone who plays lower stakes. I've taken shit like this for a long time and I don't ever whine or complain or call someone who does this a douche. I take what I can learn from it and I move on. at least its condescending and informative. if you are playing with so much money that if effects your mood and your play then dont play with that much money. its the same answer for any one at any limit. i faced similar problems at 100nl... 7 years ago so i waited until i had more buyins and then went back and tried again. this is all blatently obvious and you seem to know as much from your last sentence in OP. if its not "your style" to do things that cushion the amount of variance in poker, then deal with the variance in poker? What you said didn't bother me. I was just making a point that people seem to hold me to a different standard than everybody else for what reason I have no idea. Like, you act condescending and it's fine nobody says anything, I do it and everybody gets all up in arms. Judging from your recent posts, I think you're suffering from fallacious thinking that playing high stakes makes you some kind of elitist in this world. I used to suffer from this as well(and still do). Reality is that its far from true and a dangerous way of thinking. Thread title like "dealing with HS swings" can come off attention/approval seeking because most people here understands that stakes of your regular grind has nothing to do with your emotional well being. Best advice I can give you is try to separate your work and your life. Keep your daily results to your self. You gotta accept the fact that being a poker player is a lonely road. No1 cares that you just won 20k or lost 100k. Some might be interested but they don't really care. If you really want to share your day, get a girlfriend. Good girlfriends would at least act like they care. Far as dealing with swings go, I would recommend checking out Tommy Angelo's work. I definitely think something is different about it though. I guess what I got from your post is that the difference is in my perception of how I live my life. With higher stakes comes a different lifestyle. At lower stakes, winning and losing 1-5k a day isn't such a big deal because it's on par with what I would need to spend to live my normal life. But when I start to change my lifestyle and realize that I'm able to spend a lot more, losing affects my psyche a ton more because all of the stuff I just thought I was able to buy, after this last downswing, I'm no longer able to afford. And even though I'm still up a lot, I had so much more the days before. It's a very difficult thing to get a hold of unless you treat poker like a video game or you hardly spend any money--OR--like a bunch of guys suggested, play massively overrolled and don't start spending any extra money until you've reached a threshold that makes losing some of it no longer a concern. That's really hard for me to do, not sure I'll ever master that one based on my personality.

http://jaredtendlerpoker.com/thementalgameofpoker/

that book helps a lot. really teaches you to get to the root of the problem and fix it. playing overrolled or cashing out a lot of your roll so you are flush in life are just things that are going to mask the problem. you have to get to the root issue and fix it if you want to move past it in the proper way.

but even if you dont fix the issue, this will get easier over time. if you have a few more 25k months then the effects of a 35k downswing wont be nearly as bad. i dont know the exact numbers, but if you were looking at 75k in your account and now youre staring at 40k thats can be a little depressing. but if in 4 months you make 25k/month, cash out half your winnings, and then go on a 35k downswing, youll have 50k more in the bank, and youd be staring at 55k in your account down from 90 which isnt so bad considering the extra cushion you have both off and online.

i dont know how much youve made from poker over the last 12 months, but seeing a large % of those winnings disappear in a short amount of time is extra frustrating cause you remember all the work you did in the past to make that much money. but a few months down the road if you continue to do well the sting will be much less, and over time it will be barely more than a blip.

On August 04 2012 02:07 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On August 03 2012 23:47 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On August 03 2012 12:52 AndrewSong wrote:   On August 03 2012 10:46 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On August 03 2012 04:13 PoorUser wrote:   On August 03 2012 01:56 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On August 02 2012 23:16 PoorUser wrote: same as mid high stakes, mid stakes, low mid stakes, low stakes and microstakes swings. imagine that. And none of you jump on something like this and get all riled up about it? ... This is someone who plays higher stakes being condescending to someone who plays lower stakes. I've taken shit like this for a long time and I don't ever whine or complain or call someone who does this a douche. I take what I can learn from it and I move on. at least its condescending and informative. if you are playing with so much money that if effects your mood and your play then dont play with that much money. its the same answer for any one at any limit. i faced similar problems at 100nl... 7 years ago so i waited until i had more buyins and then went back and tried again. this is all blatently obvious and you seem to know as much from your last sentence in OP. if its not "your style" to do things that cushion the amount of variance in poker, then deal with the variance in poker? What you said didn't bother me. I was just making a point that people seem to hold me to a different standard than everybody else for what reason I have no idea. Like, you act condescending and it's fine nobody says anything, I do it and everybody gets all up in arms. Judging from your recent posts, I think you're suffering from fallacious thinking that playing high stakes makes you some kind of elitist in this world. I used to suffer from this as well(and still do). Reality is that its far from true and a dangerous way of thinking. Thread title like "dealing with HS swings" can come off attention/approval seeking because most people here understands that stakes of your regular grind has nothing to do with your emotional well being. Best advice I can give you is try to separate your work and your life. Keep your daily results to your self. You gotta accept the fact that being a poker player is a lonely road. No1 cares that you just won 20k or lost 100k. Some might be interested but they don't really care. If you really want to share your day, get a girlfriend. Good girlfriends would at least act like they care. Far as dealing with swings go, I would recommend checking out Tommy Angelo's work. I definitely think something is different about it though. I guess what I got from your post is that the difference is in my perception of how I live my life. With higher stakes comes a different lifestyle. At lower stakes, winning and losing 1-5k a day isn't such a big deal because it's on par with what I would need to spend to live my normal life. But when I start to change my lifestyle and realize that I'm able to spend a lot more, losing affects my psyche a ton more because all of the stuff I just thought I was able to buy, after this last downswing, I'm no longer able to afford. And even though I'm still up a lot, I had so much more the days before. It's a very difficult thing to get a hold of unless you treat poker like a video game or you hardly spend any money--OR--like a bunch of guys suggested, play massively overrolled and don't start spending any extra money until you've reached a threshold that makes losing some of it no longer a concern. That's really hard for me to do, not sure I'll ever master that one based on my personality. http://jaredtendlerpoker.com/thementalgameofpoker/ that book helps a lot. really teaches you to get to the root of the problem and fix it. playing overrolled or cashing out a lot of your roll so you are flush in life are just things that are going to mask the problem. you have to get to the root issue and fix it if you want to move past it in the proper way. but even if you dont fix the issue, this will get easier over time. if you have a few more 25k months then the effects of a 35k downswing wont be nearly as bad. i dont know the exact numbers, but if you were looking at 75k in your account and now youre staring at 40k thats can be a little depressing. but if in 4 months you make 25k/month, cash out half your winnings, and then go on a 35k downswing, youll have 50k more in the bank, and youd be staring at 55k in your account down from 90 which isnt so bad considering the extra cushion you have both off and online. i dont know how much youve made from poker over the last 12 months, but seeing a large % of those winnings disappear in a short amount of time is extra frustrating cause you remember all the work you did in the past to make that much money. but a few months down the road if you continue to do well the sting will be much less, and over time it will be barely more than a blip.

okay thanks dude, i will check it out. maybe i'll contact him again and see if he thinks he can help me this time.

On August 04 2012 00:24 Fayth wrote: what do you mean by different lifestyle? cuz mine hadn't really changed from mid to high (besides buying my own place)

keep in mind i barely get in 20 hours a week....

@ mid stakes, earning ~5k a month is an easy amount to live off of as long as i don't go overboard spending frivolously on stuff i don't need. that's what i had been doing for the last year and a half or so (since my last stint at 10/20).

@ high stakes, earning ~20k a month ... a plethora of options open ... now im looking at beachfront properties, leasing an audi A5, traveling a lot more. also, a lot of the things that i kept putting off for lack of funds now start to seem reasonable ... like getting invisalign (5k) and getting this stupid tattoo removed (6k). all were very possibly before the DS... after it ... now i'm forced to put those things on the back burner and need to think more about putting money away in case it continues.

+ Show Spoiler +

What happened in the last 45 days to warrant this complete 180, going from what I thought was your start towards being financially responsible, to going back to wanting to leasing baller cars and doing expensive cosmetic procedures and traveling and all that?

actually having the money to do it while also being able to save an ample amount....

If i make 20k a month, spend 8k a month and save 12k. that's a pretty damn good result.

my old way was .... i made 10k a few months in a row, so i would assume im gonna make 10k/mo every month so im gonna go out and get loans based on this assumption and "know" im going to pay them off super quick.

i guess it may seem like a 180, but it's not ... im being fiscally responsible by not just assuming i can afford anything and everything cuz i had a great month and im also beginning to build a portfolio and set projections/goals for future savings/investments.

also, much less risk in leasing a car than buying one.

and i've been following the 50 buy in bankroll. i took a step back down to 5/10 after this swing.

imo if ur goal is to make easy 20k$ a month, i dont get why ur playing 10/20 where ur gonna swing 50k$ up and down every month 5 times.
instead u should gameselect the shit out of 2/4 and ull have ur swingfree 20k every month because without sounding to much like an asshole loseing 35k$ on 10/20 is nothing obv it sux but its gonna happen many times
and the quicker u realise this its not gonna hurt as much because ur gonna be ready for it before it happends, because its standard and expected.

if u experience the swings under a longer period of time, its gonna get easier aka more volume at that stake.
so the 400th time u lose 15 buy ins in a day ur gonna go, oh well w/e

so i think u should just get in more volume and go down to 5/10 everytime u lose 15 buy ins and repeat it until ur up there swinging 15 buy ins like a bawss takeing it like a bawss


(cliffnotes: i think the only way to get used to it is experience, and safety obv like being somewhat rolled etc)

and if u cant adjust to the $ swings, then just play where ur comfortable, very uncessasary walking around feeling like shit because of standard events at ur "job" then u need to switch things up

On August 03 2012 23:47 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 03 2012 12:52 AndrewSong wrote:   On August 03 2012 10:46 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On August 03 2012 04:13 PoorUser wrote:   On August 03 2012 01:56 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On August 02 2012 23:16 PoorUser wrote: same as mid high stakes, mid stakes, low mid stakes, low stakes and microstakes swings. imagine that. And none of you jump on something like this and get all riled up about it? ... This is someone who plays higher stakes being condescending to someone who plays lower stakes. I've taken shit like this for a long time and I don't ever whine or complain or call someone who does this a douche. I take what I can learn from it and I move on. at least its condescending and informative. if you are playing with so much money that if effects your mood and your play then dont play with that much money. its the same answer for any one at any limit. i faced similar problems at 100nl... 7 years ago so i waited until i had more buyins and then went back and tried again. this is all blatently obvious and you seem to know as much from your last sentence in OP. if its not "your style" to do things that cushion the amount of variance in poker, then deal with the variance in poker? What you said didn't bother me. I was just making a point that people seem to hold me to a different standard than everybody else for what reason I have no idea. Like, you act condescending and it's fine nobody says anything, I do it and everybody gets all up in arms. Judging from your recent posts, I think you're suffering from fallacious thinking that playing high stakes makes you some kind of elitist in this world. I used to suffer from this as well(and still do). Reality is that its far from true and a dangerous way of thinking. Thread title like "dealing with HS swings" can come off attention/approval seeking because most people here understands that stakes of your regular grind has nothing to do with your emotional well being. Best advice I can give you is try to separate your work and your life. Keep your daily results to your self. You gotta accept the fact that being a poker player is a lonely road. No1 cares that you just won 20k or lost 100k. Some might be interested but they don't really care. If you really want to share your day, get a girlfriend. Good girlfriends would at least act like they care. Far as dealing with swings go, I would recommend checking out Tommy Angelo's work. I definitely think something is different about it though. I guess what I got from your post is that the difference is in my perception of how I live my life. With higher stakes comes a different lifestyle. At lower stakes, winning and losing 1-5k a day isn't such a big deal because it's on par with what I would need to spend to live my normal life. But when I start to change my lifestyle and realize that I'm able to spend a lot more, losing affects my psyche a ton more because all of the stuff I just thought I was able to buy, after this last downswing, I'm no longer able to afford. And even though I'm still up a lot, I had so much more the days before. It's a very difficult thing to get a hold of unless you treat poker like a video game or you hardly spend any money--OR--like a bunch of guys suggested, play massively overrolled and don't start spending any extra money until you've reached a threshold that makes losing some of it no longer a concern. That's really hard for me to do, not sure I'll ever master that one based on my personality.

Everyone is different but for me it works well that my poker results and my normal spendings are not connected at all. I just have money set aside to be able to live the same lifestyle for some 5-6 years or something and so poker results dont influence my normal life at all, except for investments and such. That said big highstakes swings still get to me a bit.

dont know why u get loans, the way I worked it out was, once I get to 100 000$ I buy a 20k car, once I get to 1 000 000$ I buy a house, that was my general thinking, getting loans as a poker player is just asking to be fucking stressed out, the way I handle I never need to worry about money, you seem to be very eager to get the good expensive stuff without any proven long term results (apparently from ur situation with this small downswing)

Loans to buy expensive cool shit. A non super baller poker player's best friend.

Like what...half a year or less back at high stakes? Shit. Time to look at beachfront properties.

I can't actually believe the volume of genuine advice given to this guy in this thread.

I would try very hard to do what Fayth and Joe said. Disconnect your poker earnings from your spending lifestyle. Try to live off of as little as possible without being miserable, and think of your money in terms of years of survival. When your money ball gets big enough where you can live for the next 50 years off of it, THEN you can afford to buy a nicer car or what have you. If you're looking for something to spend your money on, get into real estate or backing or something that can get you a return imo.

On August 04 2012 05:47 longple wrote: imo if ur goal is to make easy 20k$ a month, i dont get why ur playing 10/20 where ur gonna swing 50k$ up and down every month 5 times. instead u should gameselect the shit out of 2/4 and ull have ur swingfree 20k every month because without sounding to much like an asshole loseing 35k$ on 10/20 is nothing obv it sux but its gonna happen many times and the quicker u realise this its not gonna hurt as much because ur gonna be ready for it before it happends, because its standard and expected. if u experience the swings under a longer period of time, its gonna get easier aka more volume at that stake. so the 400th time u lose 15 buy ins in a day ur gonna go, oh well w/e so i think u should just get in more volume and go down to 5/10 everytime u lose 15 buy ins and repeat it until ur up there swinging 15 buy ins like a bawss takeing it like a bawss (cliffnotes: i think the only way to get used to it is experience, and safety obv like being somewhat rolled etc)

I don't disagree w/ most of what you said, but, nobody makes 20k a month at 2/4. The best 2/4 players will sometimes make that much, but most of the time they make a ton less. If they played like 50-60 hours a week and were really good maybe it's doable -- like nanonoko style, but I don't personally know anyone who can do that.

I also think a lot of you guys overestimate the swings in NLHE. Particularly with the way I play, I often pass up on many many marginally +ev spots that are high variance for sanity. There's so many spots in the game where I feel like a lot of guys don't even realize they are taking a marginally +ev spot and not realizing how much variance they subject themselves to.

I think a 20 buy in downswing in NL is going to happen incredibly rarely for me at this point ... if it happens, it's far far far more likely that I was playing poorly than I ran bad.

Just my opinion tho. But yeah I agree w/ your strategy about getting used to it.

On August 04 2012 09:45 Fayth wrote: dont know why u get loans, the way I worked it out was, once I get to 100 000$ I buy a 20k car, once I get to 1 000 000$ I buy a house, that was my general thinking, getting loans as a poker player is just asking to be fucking stressed out, the way I handle I never need to worry about money, you seem to be very eager to get the good expensive stuff without any proven long term results (apparently from ur situation with this small downswing)

Well I was a financial moron when I was getting loans based on my future projected earn. Obviously I don't do that anymore and now I put away money every month into a savings account along with investments, so these are big changes from what I used to do.

Still, I guess I just do it very differently from you. I don't plan (extensively) for the future, I try to enjoy the time I have now (who knows how much I have left?). I don't have a fat bank account like you do but I have a lot of experiences (not saying you don't have experiences too--just that you very likely had to pass up on a lot of opportunities in order to acquire such large numbers).

I don't play it safe then get some normal job if things don't work out (yeah I know I sound just like Worm lol), I would move down and move down and move down and keep grinding til I had enough to spend on stuff I enjoyed again. I guess that's maybe the biggest difference between us.

And as far as not having proven long term results? Are you serious? ... I've made a lot of money from poker, definitely over a million--that's with zero tournament wins >5k too. I spend A LOT. I used to spend like crazy back when I was 19-26. I went through so much money between 19-21, prob spent 200k those three years on useless stuff. I've only just recently slowed down.

one dsnt need to pass up on opportunities to get a fat bank account, one just needs to try and make moar $$$ than what one's makin now (in the case of poker thatd be playing more, workin on increasing one's winrate etc), reducing expenses is the nitty way to solve the problem, what you need to do is to increase your income (courage wolf ftw).

On August 04 2012 23:35 MARSHALL28 wrote nobody makes 20k a month at 2/4.

haha :D longple is king

wtf you've made a million life time? holy shit? even if you played for 10 years, how do you SPEND 100k a year :o

i make 60k a year doing a normal job and after a few years of doing this, i had the feeling once you reach 100k annual salary (before taxes) you could make irresponsible purchases and still be ok...can't even relate anymore :c

On August 05 2012 15:24 hording wrote: haha :D longple is king

i don't really understand him. why?

On August 03 2012 01:56 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 02 2012 23:16 PoorUser wrote: same as mid high stakes, mid stakes, low mid stakes, low stakes and microstakes swings. imagine that. And none of you jump on something like this and get all riled up about it? ... This is someone who plays higher stakes being condescending to someone who plays lower stakes. I've taken shit like this for a long time and I don't ever whine or complain or call someone who does this a douche. I take what I can learn from it and I move on.

maybe your previous post had something to do with the nature of his reply?

On August 05 2012 15:40 patti wrote: wtf you've made a million life time? holy shit? even if you played for 10 years, how do you SPEND 100k a year :o i make 60k a year doing a normal job and after a few years of doing this, i had the feeling once you reach 100k annual salary (before taxes) you could make irresponsible purchases and still be ok...can't even relate anymore :c

A reasonable person doesn't spend anywhere near 100k a year.

I did that back when I was dealing drugs... before I started playing poker. Couldn't spend the money on anything fancy or save it for fear of IRS so just blew through it on random stuff constantly.