10/20 get c/r on river

Basically readless here... guy is probably a reg.

10/20 blinds

UTG opens 60, I call MP 88, all others fold. (4k effective)

Flop As8c7h he chk I bet 100 into ~140 he calls

Turn 9c he chk I bet 320 into ~340, he calls.

River 7d he chk I bet ~760 into ~980, he makes it 1500 more.

Notsureifsrs.jpg

Shove

I mean if he's a real nitty reg you can just flat i guess.

...the decision is pretty clearly between folding and calling

...maybe add how deep we are?

On July 18 2012 22:35 MARSHALL28 wrote: ...the decision is pretty clearly between folding and calling

lol no

Folding is terrible, average reg has worse often enough in his value range, and I generally feel we're even ahead. Though if we assume avg 10/20 reg is good enough to fold 76 and straights here despite the sick odds he'll be getting I think we gotta just call.

On July 18 2012 23:01 NMcNasty wrote: Folding is terrible, average reg has worse often enough in his value range, and I generally feel we're even ahead. Though if we assume avg 10/20 reg is good enough to fold 76 and straights here despite the sick odds he'll be getting I think we gotta just call.

if u r gonna use the stake as a default way to gauge the avg skill level of a player in these games then you probably gotta assume that if he's ever going to consider c/c the flop w/ 76 that he's 100% c/r this turn with it since he'd have to assume that my MP flatting range is pretty strong (as it is), making 67 a pretty bad c/c on the flop and then very obviously a much worse c/c on the turn. the only bluff i have at that point is KQcc (and even that im probably 3betting at least 50% of the time) since i wouldn't ever flat qjs, jts has a straight, and t9s turned a pair so if i bet that on the turn im bluffing with the best hand. everything else is AK/AQ or pr bigger than 9s.

Well initially I read hand wrong, thouht we were the initial opener. I guess utg c/caliing on all streets and repopping river points to one hand.... But the read required to fold this is so insane. Considering your description of no real reads, I think you have to call and take your cooler, despite having a hard time assigning any real range.

On July 18 2012 22:55 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 18 2012 22:35 MARSHALL28 wrote: ...the decision is pretty clearly between folding and calling lol no

sigh ... why do i bother posting a hand, ever.

The unlikely occurence of AA here is greater or smaller than the occurence of goofy played hand or spazz I think is the crux of this hand.

Also not saying check river, but I try and consciously juggle ranges in my head as we go to showdown. Was there a certain range of hands u were trying to target on the river? Although I never have played this hi, I can't think of many preflop utg hands that can c/call on an A high board over 3 streets. I would have bet smaller to try and induce or get a crying call from hands like KK QQ and prob have sized the turn smaller.

Hopefully my points aren't terribly mundane.

On July 18 2012 23:12 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 18 2012 23:01 NMcNasty wrote: Folding is terrible, average reg has worse often enough in his value range, and I generally feel we're even ahead. Though if we assume avg 10/20 reg is good enough to fold 76 and straights here despite the sick odds he'll be getting I think we gotta just call. if u r gonna use the stake as a default way to gauge the avg skill level of a player in these games then you probably gotta assume that if he's ever going to consider c/c the flop w/ 76 that he's 100% c/r this turn with it since he'd have to assume that my MP flatting range is pretty strong (as it is), making 67 a pretty bad c/c on the flop and then very obviously a much worse c/c on the turn. the only bluff i have at that point is KQcc (and even that im probably 3betting at least 50% of the time) since i wouldn't ever flat qjs, jts has a straight, and t9s turned a pair so if i bet that on the turn im bluffing with the best hand. everything else is AK/AQ or pr bigger than 9s.

I mean there's pretty much no hand it makes sense for him to have according to standard lines. Check/calling with a draw on the flop or pair+draw on the turn with the option of bluffing a later street is really not that unheard of.

On July 18 2012 23:25 patti wrote: The unlikely occurence of AA here is greater or smaller than the occurence of goofy played hand or spazz I think is the crux of this hand. Also not saying check river, but I try and consciously juggle ranges in my head as we go to showdown. Was there a certain range of hands u were trying to target on the river? Although I never have played this hi, I can't think of many preflop utg hands that can c/call on an A high board over 3 streets. I would have bet smaller to try and induce or get a crying call from hands like KK QQ and prob have sized the turn smaller. Hopefully my points aren't terribly mundane.

nah u make a good point about the river. i do want to near pot the turn tho to rep bluffs, but now i have so few bluffs on the river in my range i probly shoulda gone much smaller, maybe less than half pot, that or overbet.

On July 18 2012 23:30 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On July 18 2012 23:12 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 18 2012 23:01 NMcNasty wrote: Folding is terrible, average reg has worse often enough in his value range, and I generally feel we're even ahead. Though if we assume avg 10/20 reg is good enough to fold 76 and straights here despite the sick odds he'll be getting I think we gotta just call. if u r gonna use the stake as a default way to gauge the avg skill level of a player in these games then you probably gotta assume that if he's ever going to consider c/c the flop w/ 76 that he's 100% c/r this turn with it since he'd have to assume that my MP flatting range is pretty strong (as it is), making 67 a pretty bad c/c on the flop and then very obviously a much worse c/c on the turn. the only bluff i have at that point is KQcc (and even that im probably 3betting at least 50% of the time) since i wouldn't ever flat qjs, jts has a straight, and t9s turned a pair so if i bet that on the turn im bluffing with the best hand. everything else is AK/AQ or pr bigger than 9s. I mean there's pretty much no hand it makes sense for him to have according to standard lines. Check/calling with a draw on the flop or pair+draw on the turn with the option of bluffing a later street is really not that unheard of.

exactly...

why else did i point out that if he happened to c/c 67 (and yeah that's a type of play i potentially make against very strong players) on the flop that he would 100% have to c/r it on this specific turn for the flop c/c to ever be a good idea.

hands that make sense for him according to "standard" lines ... AA/99.

would like to hear a convincing argument that i can expect this guy to show up w/ anything worse than AA or 99 here, haven't heard one yet unless you want to pile a ton of stock into the "u have a really strong hand and maybe he's spazzing out" type logic which i rarely subscribe to.

i did fold this river, really wanted to see how many other ppl were folding it tho. between this thread and the one in CR seems no one else would have folded.

we can find out tomorrow what he had tho cuz this was at an anonymous table.

Is this fullring or 6m?

: /

this is an easy just call imo. i think shoving is too thin and folding is just stupid. expect to see 97/87/A7/99/AA. would expect 97 to fold on occasion, the others to call a shove. of course hes prob not raising as many 97 and A7 as he is AA/99. but whatever he has all those hands and enough other randomness to make calling fine when youre getting reasonable odds

i do think on occasion he check calls the 2 pair hands on the flop and 97 instead of betting or check raising. and then check calls again on the turn based on his flop play. its not super likely but i think that combined with randomness of other shit is more than enough to justify a call getting like 2260+760+950=4000:1500 ~ 2.6:1 only need to win ~28%

Jesus i hate your undertones... I cant believe anyone even bothered to give you insight.

minraise river imo

first instinct is to shove, then realized u can call. then realized shoving still better. if 9 pairs instead of 7its a slamdunk call, as is its a slamdunk shove.

On July 19 2012 06:17 idonklife wrote: minraise river imo

this might be very good too but i think shoving is better vs a random unknown.

On July 19 2012 05:05 handbanana21 wrote: Jesus i hate your undertones... I cant believe anyone even bothered to give you insight.

what i said wrong?

...i've been giving everybody else tons of insight in like every thread.

i'll find out what he had in 3 hrs, i think if it shows 97 or 67 i need to re-think how ppl r playing in these games cuz atm i really don't think those hands combined will show up anywhere close to 28% of the time. interested to know what tom thinks....

--- Nuked ---

On July 19 2012 14:27 MARSHALL28 wrote: i'll find out what he had in 3 hrs, i think if it shows 97 or 67 i need to re-think how ppl r playing in these games cuz atm i really don't think those hands combined will show up anywhere close to 28% of the time.

Also JTs, A7s, 56s, 87s, and utg raises with other random suited sevens is really not that uncommon.

So this isn't live poker? Was confused by the HH a little but then you said anonymous tables so unless people are playing with bags over their heads I'll just assume it's online. Obviously the random spazz-out factor is much smaller online compared to live but I would still call here. Even if he's just got AT/AJ or something he could be calling down then decides you have to fold your whole range if he raises your river bet bc he looks so strong. Idk about shoving versus calling argument but I would definitely look him up.

I have a boat.

ALL-IN

I'm actually a big fan of sizing my river bet smaller in this hand, esp w given action. I'm never folding. Ever. Ever never ever.

seriously you folded?

this has to be a terrible fold, I'm not a big fan of raising but you have to snap call this all day long, this line makes a lot more sense with A7 than it does with AA/99/77

oh actually it could be 99, thought flop was A98

either way I still call

On July 20 2012 01:34 Fayth wrote: seriously you folded? this has to be a terrible fold, I'm not a big fan of raising but you have to snap call this all day long, this line makes a lot more sense with A7 than it does with AA/99/77 oh actually it could be 99, thought flop was A98 either way I still call

yes i folded. tell me, hows he bluffing? and if he's value raising worse, give a reasonable thought process for how to get to this point w/ a worse hand for value.

On July 19 2012 20:26 JonnyCosMo wrote: I'm actually a big fan of sizing my river bet smaller in this hand, esp w given action.

yep, i agree, that was a mistake i made.

On July 20 2012 01:59 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2012 01:34 Fayth wrote: seriously you folded? this has to be a terrible fold, I'm not a big fan of raising but you have to snap call this all day long, this line makes a lot more sense with A7 than it does with AA/99/77 oh actually it could be 99, thought flop was A98 either way I still call yes i folded. tell me, hows he bluffing? and if he's value raising worse, give a reasonable thought process for how to get to this point w/ a worse hand for value.

Notsureifsrs.jpg

I dont understand how you give some unknown this much credit here, I mean you are losing to 6 combos of 99/AA and even that he wont play like this 100% on the flop/turn so its like ~4.5 and we are getting better than 2:1, meaning we need to like A combo of something we beat and especially vs some unknown who can be doing god knows what I think its a very bad fold. I disagree with others about this being a raise tho.

headexplode

On July 19 2012 14:27 MARSHALL28 wrote: i'll find out what he had in 3 hrs, i think if it shows 97 or 67 i need to re-think how ppl r playing in these games cuz atm i really don't think those hands combined will show up anywhere close to 28% of the time. interested to know what tom thinks....

longest 3 hours ever

this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --;

On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --;

Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime.

On July 22 2012 20:32 player999 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 19 2012 14:27 MARSHALL28 wrote: i'll find out what he had in 3 hrs, i think if it shows 97 or 67 i need to re-think how ppl r playing in these games cuz atm i really don't think those hands combined will show up anywhere close to 28% of the time. interested to know what tom thinks.... longest 3 hours ever

Dude had 99.

On July 19 2012 14:19 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 19 2012 05:05 handbanana21 wrote: Jesus i hate your undertones... I cant believe anyone even bothered to give you insight. what i said wrong? ...i've been giving everybody else tons of insight in like every thread.

No, your assumption that it was a clear call/fold is simply wrong and when people said it you reacted like a moron.

fold is way worse than raising

On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime.

You folded. Come and play me anytime.



lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not.

This is probably Marshall's goofy way to troll LP.net...

Herp derp, you got us!

On July 23 2012 00:39 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime. You folded. Come and play me anytime. lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not.

What would have been the proper way to respond? Hevad told me straight up that if I was going to say I had the right fold I would get trolled, then I told him screw it, I won't post any result at all, in which he replied to me that I had it all wrong and that no one was going to judge me.

So when Liu starts claiming that the games are easy nowadays and that a fold is terrible, lol of course I would like to play him. He doesn't have as much experience as I do if he doesn't understand what's going on. I'm a favorite ... what am I supposed to say, "omg u made so much more than me, u must be way better" and gnaw on his nuts? The dude has been so weird since the day I met him anyways.

He yells down the hallway "JENNIFER TILLY IS FAT" when she is 30 yards away. Then we hang out and talk poker for like an hour straight ... then a year or so later he acts like he's never met me before....whatever dude...

On July 23 2012 01:42 JonnyCosMo wrote: This is probably Marshall's goofy way to troll LP.net... Herp derp, you got us!

cuz my read was right and everybody who is "assumed" to be good was wrong, im all of a sudden trolling? ... i havent posted here in many years, why would i come back now to bother with one stupid hand where .. even if i was wrong in my fold, i would have posted that i was wrong. i just happened to be right, what am i supposed to do, lie? not ever post any hands ever? ... just cuz i was right im trolling? ... whatever dude.

On July 23 2012 00:39 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime. You folded. Come and play me anytime. lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not.

never wanted anybody;s help, figured id see what other "good" players would do.

but if u wanna play, obv i wont back down ... i would only prefer not to play a few players that post here ... those of which never responded in any serious manner to this thread....id avoid pooruser, talentedtom, andrewsong, i'd play anybody else who made a serious post in this thread

On July 23 2012 05:26 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2012 00:39 Baalim wrote:   On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime. You folded. Come and play me anytime. lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not. never wanted anybody;s help, figured id see what other "good" players would do. but if u wanna play, obv i wont back down ... i would only prefer not to play a few players that post here ... those of which never responded in any serious manner to this thread....id avoid pooruser, talentedtom, andrewsong, i'd play anybody else who made a serious post in this thread

posting something for no reason other than a reaction = trolling


i stand by its a just call. if he had just bombed all in then i would probably fold. removes weak value/any bluffs from his range and gives you much worse odds. but here when he less than 3x's it over you i find it hard to believe youre not good 1 in 3.5. weakish value can definitely be in there as is the small chance he turns something like T9/AT into a bluff. i certainly dont fistpump call here, its more an "FML im probably beat, but i have to call here"

just running some quick numbers, if we give him all 3 AA, all 3 99 and the 1 77 we only need him to show up with 3 other combos here to make this call ok. if we give him the A7cc 50%, the 97ss 50%, the one remaining 87ss we only need him to turn a hand into a bluff like 1 in 10 probably to call. thats also ignoring thin value which isnt likely but possible when he makes it 1500 more instead of jamming or bigger.

im the king of making big folds in spots like this. even when youre losing to only 7 combos of hands that he might play differently i still believe you can find folds in spots when you dissect information well enough. but i dont think this is one of those cases. needing to beat only 3 combos is absurdly low, especially when you can possibly beat value hands



as to the other shit in this thread, marshall is very good. i watched one of his CR videos and he played great and had good logic behind everything he did. not sure why this is turning into a bashing fest between good players. if you guys want to grudge match hu be my guest, it will be fun to watch

On July 23 2012 11:09 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2012 05:26 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 23 2012 00:39 Baalim wrote:   On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime. You folded. Come and play me anytime. lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not. never wanted anybody;s help, figured id see what other "good" players would do. but if u wanna play, obv i wont back down ... i would only prefer not to play a few players that post here ... those of which never responded in any serious manner to this thread....id avoid pooruser, talentedtom, andrewsong, i'd play anybody else who made a serious post in this thread posting something for no reason other than a reaction = trolling i stand by its a just call. if he had just bombed all in then i would probably fold. removes weak value/any bluffs from his range and gives you much worse odds. but here when he less than 3x's it over you i find it hard to believe youre not good 1 in 3.5. weakish value can definitely be in there as is the small chance he turns something like T9/AT into a bluff. i certainly dont fistpump call here, its more an "FML im probably beat, but i have to call here" just running some quick numbers, if we give him all 3 AA, all 3 99 and the 1 77 we only need him to show up with 3 other combos here to make this call ok. if we give him the A7cc 50%, the 97ss 50%, the one remaining 87ss we only need him to turn a hand into a bluff like 1 in 10 probably to call. thats also ignoring thin value which isnt likely but possible when he makes it 1500 more instead of jamming or bigger. im the king of making big folds in spots like this. even when youre losing to only 7 combos of hands that he might play differently i still believe you can find folds in spots when you dissect information well enough. but i dont think this is one of those cases. needing to beat only 3 combos is absurdly low, especially when you can possibly beat value hands as to the other shit in this thread, marshall is very good. i watched one of his CR videos and he played great and had good logic behind everything he did. not sure why this is turning into a bashing fest between good players. if you guys want to grudge match hu be my guest, it will be fun to watch

I very well could have been wrong and the guy could have shown up with something else....I didn't fold then was like "100% I made a good fold". If I knew the result of the hand prior to posting then I think what you are calling trolling is what I'd have done, but that's just not what happened.

Anyways, thanks for backing me up here, I definitely appreciate that.

On July 23 2012 00:39 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime. You folded. Come and play me anytime. lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not.

I was looking for a serious discussion. The only person providing one at all at this point is Daut.

and I know all of you guys would whoop my ass at plo.

On July 23 2012 11:09 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2012 05:26 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 23 2012 00:39 Baalim wrote:   On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime. You folded. Come and play me anytime. lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not. never wanted anybody;s help, figured id see what other "good" players would do. but if u wanna play, obv i wont back down ... i would only prefer not to play a few players that post here ... those of which never responded in any serious manner to this thread....id avoid pooruser, talentedtom, andrewsong, i'd play anybody else who made a serious post in this thread posting something for no reason other than a reaction = trolling i stand by its a just call. if he had just bombed all in then i would probably fold. removes weak value/any bluffs from his range and gives you much worse odds. but here when he less than 3x's it over you i find it hard to believe youre not good 1 in 3.5. weakish value can definitely be in there as is the small chance he turns something like T9/AT into a bluff. i certainly dont fistpump call here, its more an "FML im probably beat, but i have to call here" just running some quick numbers, if we give him all 3 AA, all 3 99 and the 1 77 we only need him to show up with 3 other combos here to make this call ok. if we give him the A7cc 50%, the 97ss 50%, the one remaining 87ss we only need him to turn a hand into a bluff like 1 in 10 probably to call. thats also ignoring thin value which isnt likely but possible when he makes it 1500 more instead of jamming or bigger. im the king of making big folds in spots like this. even when youre losing to only 7 combos of hands that he might play differently i still believe you can find folds in spots when you dissect information well enough. but i dont think this is one of those cases. needing to beat only 3 combos is absurdly low, especially when you can possibly beat value hands as to the other shit in this thread, marshall is very good. i watched one of his CR videos and he played great and had good logic behind everything he did. not sure why this is turning into a bashing fest between good players. if you guys want to grudge match hu be my guest, it will be fun to watch

What is wrong with you? -_-;; Are you trolling me too?

You have a FULL HOUSE when you are "READLESS" on Villan.

FFS how does money not fly in here w/ given information.

Im pretty sure PU, Andrew and Tom dont fold here either, and what the fuck does that peachy rant have to do with this discussion?!

On July 23 2012 12:19 JonnyCosMo wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2012 11:09 Daut wrote:   On July 23 2012 05:26 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 23 2012 00:39 Baalim wrote:   On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime. You folded. Come and play me anytime. lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not. never wanted anybody;s help, figured id see what other "good" players would do. but if u wanna play, obv i wont back down ... i would only prefer not to play a few players that post here ... those of which never responded in any serious manner to this thread....id avoid pooruser, talentedtom, andrewsong, i'd play anybody else who made a serious post in this thread posting something for no reason other than a reaction = trolling i stand by its a just call. if he had just bombed all in then i would probably fold. removes weak value/any bluffs from his range and gives you much worse odds. but here when he less than 3x's it over you i find it hard to believe youre not good 1 in 3.5. weakish value can definitely be in there as is the small chance he turns something like T9/AT into a bluff. i certainly dont fistpump call here, its more an "FML im probably beat, but i have to call here" just running some quick numbers, if we give him all 3 AA, all 3 99 and the 1 77 we only need him to show up with 3 other combos here to make this call ok. if we give him the A7cc 50%, the 97ss 50%, the one remaining 87ss we only need him to turn a hand into a bluff like 1 in 10 probably to call. thats also ignoring thin value which isnt likely but possible when he makes it 1500 more instead of jamming or bigger. im the king of making big folds in spots like this. even when youre losing to only 7 combos of hands that he might play differently i still believe you can find folds in spots when you dissect information well enough. but i dont think this is one of those cases. needing to beat only 3 combos is absurdly low, especially when you can possibly beat value hands as to the other shit in this thread, marshall is very good. i watched one of his CR videos and he played great and had good logic behind everything he did. not sure why this is turning into a bashing fest between good players. if you guys want to grudge match hu be my guest, it will be fun to watch What is wrong with you? -_-;; Are you trolling me too? You have a FULL HOUSE when you are "READLESS" on Villan. FFS how does money not fly in here w/ given information.

I'd repost the same question that I asked to fayth.....

Give me a reasonable thought process for how villain gets to this point and makes this play with a worse hand for value.

How does he get to this spot with a hand that is reasonable to now turn into a bluff.

----------

Anybody who plays only live would not be able to define ranges as narrowly as I'm able to in a 10/20NL online game @ 2012 given UTG opened and I flatted MP.....

My flatting range in this spot includes these hands and these hands only:
AA-66, AK, AQ, KQs, JTs-67s

Flop As8c7d

When chkd to I'm going to bet 88,77, 78, AK, AQ for value (prob chk AA). I'm going to bluff w/ KQs, JTs, T9s, sometimes 67s, sometimes 66.

After villain calls and the turn is 9c then he chks, hands I'm going to continue betting are.... almost all of them. I chkd back 89 but that has 2pr so now I'm betting. KQcc I'll continue betting, other KQs give up. JT now has a straight, 67 probably keeps bluffing because I have an open ender, 66 probably keeps bluffing too for the same reason.

Villain calls, river is a 7s.... what hands am I still betting for value? 77, 88, JT, AK/AQ, 99. If villain knows my range here ... he realizes, IT'S REALLY STRONG. Only somewhat thin value bets are AK/AQ, so maybe he thinks he can get me off of those hands if he c/r bluffs. But if he was so worried about me having those hands and him being beat, he's almost always just going to fold and not turn his hand into a bluff because clearly my range is so strong here and like everyone here thinks, no one is going to fold very often with such a strong range to a c/r bluff.

So what hands can he get to this point with after c/c twice?

Most obvious ones in my mind are AA and 99. AA slowplaying flop and turn (seems like a bad play to me but people make dumb plays all the time), 99 is clearly the most obvious. It c/c the flop cuz it thinks no better hand folds and no worse hand calls (which isn't necessarily true but I can see why he'd think that). If he has KK or QQ I could see him c/c once or even twice, but at this river, cuz it seems so unlikely I'm folding to a c/r, seems like a pretty awful spot for him to consider one would work.

Anything anybody said about guys having 67 or JT is just ridiculous. Like I said previously, if a good player c/c this flop w/ 67, he's 100% going to c/r or fold this turn given how strong my range is and how he picks up additional equity. 97 is not in any good regs UTG 3x opening range -- EVER -- It's too weak a hand to make a long term profit so I'm just going to ignore the fact that he could even have it. If he has AJ or AQ, he's going to think about either calling or folding. If he has TT it's kind of the same thought process along the lines of 67... his hand is toast on the turn, but it could be a good spot to c/r bluff with that hand.

So pretty much I think every time he's bluffing I'm going to hear from him on the turn--after all, that's when the board gets most draw heavy and also the point where he can represent the most semi-bluffs in order to get me to call down light.

Had this guy c/r this turn w/ 99 then jammed the river, pretty sure he 100% gets my whole stack, but clearly he's not that good.

So that's my thoughts. None of it is trolling, ranges are just far more defined nowadays than when you used to play.

On July 23 2012 13:34 EvilSky wrote: Im pretty sure PU, Andrew and Tom dont fold here either, and what the fuck does that peachy rant have to do with this discussion?!

he implied i'm a donk and that the games were super easy if I'll just fold everything but the 2nd nuts to a river c/r when he's just being an idiot when his suggestion to jam the river over the c/r is major spew. guess i could have ignored it, but i was looking for some kind of discussion and not someone swinging their e-peen.

I guess if I can assume the guy turns the occasional AJ or AQ into a bluff, then Daut's analysis quickly shows I should have considered calling much more than I did in the hand -- I was really expecting a c/r and ready to fold to it before it happened. I need to count combos more and learn how to use pot odds to help these decisions, I'm such a math donk : [

On July 23 2012 14:06 MARSHALL28 wrote: Anything anybody said about guys having 67 or JT is just ridiculous. Like I said previously, if a good player c/c this flop w/ 67, he's 100% going to c/r or fold this turn given how strong my range is and how he picks up additional equity.

Why? You're apparently fully accepting he can c/c flop to bluff turn, but there's a 0% chance he c/c's turn to bluff river? I find that weird tricky plays tend to come in clumps fairly often.

97 is not in any good regs UTG 3x opening range -- EVER --

Just gotta flat out disagree with u there. It is probably a very small mistake to open it UTG, but its a small mistake the average reg makes more often than not.

On July 23 2012 20:02 NMcNasty wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2012 14:06 MARSHALL28 wrote: Anything anybody said about guys having 67 or JT is just ridiculous. Like I said previously, if a good player c/c this flop w/ 67, he's 100% going to c/r or fold this turn given how strong my range is and how he picks up additional equity. Why? You're apparently fully accepting he can c/c flop to bluff turn, but there's a 0% chance he c/c's turn to bluff river? I find that weird tricky plays tend to come in clumps fairly often.

Well, the turn is the spot he will have the most semi-bluffs. If he was going to bluff ... I feel like it's going to be on that street, not the river--especially a board pairing river.

97 is not in any good regs UTG 3x opening range -- EVER --

Just gotta flat out disagree with u there. It is probably a very small mistake to open it UTG, but its a small mistake the average reg makes more often than not.

I can't remember the last time I played 5/10+ and saw someone whom I respect showdown 97s after opening UTG. Maybe you play in different games than I do.

stop assuming marshall28 has the ability to troll

he has always been this way. as much as he blogs like a faggot and claims to have changed he's always marshall28

NICE FOLD LOLOLOLOLOLOL

lolfold

On July 19 2012 05:05 handbanana21 wrote: Jesus i hate your undertones... I cant believe anyone even bothered to give you insight.

i really have no idea what im doing/saying wrong ... could somebody spell it out for me??? cuz apparently i just dont get it....

i had a hand i wanted to see what other ppl would do in the spot so i posted it ... i got some weird/bad responses so i replied that i thought they were wrong... this is bad form or something?

seriously ... im not leveling, i rly dont get it.

--- Nuked ---

On July 23 2012 14:06 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 23 2012 12:19 JonnyCosMo wrote:   On July 23 2012 11:09 Daut wrote:   On July 23 2012 05:26 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 23 2012 00:39 Baalim wrote:   On July 22 2012 23:50 MARSHALL28 wrote:   On July 22 2012 20:45 n0rthf4ce wrote: this is how online is played these days? i can just c/r turn anything into a bluff on riv and any one of you folds the tip top of your range? need to start playing on stars again if this is the case --; Lol if u seriously wanna jam this river all in. Come and play me anytime. You folded. Come and play me anytime. lol why do we even bother helping this guy out? fuck him, i thought he changed, guess not. never wanted anybody;s help, figured id see what other "good" players would do. but if u wanna play, obv i wont back down ... i would only prefer not to play a few players that post here ... those of which never responded in any serious manner to this thread....id avoid pooruser, talentedtom, andrewsong, i'd play anybody else who made a serious post in this thread posting something for no reason other than a reaction = trolling i stand by its a just call. if he had just bombed all in then i would probably fold. removes weak value/any bluffs from his range and gives you much worse odds. but here when he less than 3x's it over you i find it hard to believe youre not good 1 in 3.5. weakish value can definitely be in there as is the small chance he turns something like T9/AT into a bluff. i certainly dont fistpump call here, its more an "FML im probably beat, but i have to call here" just running some quick numbers, if we give him all 3 AA, all 3 99 and the 1 77 we only need him to show up with 3 other combos here to make this call ok. if we give him the A7cc 50%, the 97ss 50%, the one remaining 87ss we only need him to turn a hand into a bluff like 1 in 10 probably to call. thats also ignoring thin value which isnt likely but possible when he makes it 1500 more instead of jamming or bigger. im the king of making big folds in spots like this. even when youre losing to only 7 combos of hands that he might play differently i still believe you can find folds in spots when you dissect information well enough. but i dont think this is one of those cases. needing to beat only 3 combos is absurdly low, especially when you can possibly beat value hands as to the other shit in this thread, marshall is very good. i watched one of his CR videos and he played great and had good logic behind everything he did. not sure why this is turning into a bashing fest between good players. if you guys want to grudge match hu be my guest, it will be fun to watch What is wrong with you? -_-;; Are you trolling me too? You have a FULL HOUSE when you are "READLESS" on Villan. FFS how does money not fly in here w/ given information. I'd repost the same question that I asked to fayth..... Give me a reasonable thought process for how villain gets to this point and makes this play with a worse hand for value. How does he get to this spot with a hand that is reasonable to now turn into a bluff. ---------- Anybody who plays only live would not be able to define ranges as narrowly as I'm able to in a 10/20NL online game @ 2012 given UTG opened and I flatted MP..... My flatting range in this spot includes these hands and these hands only: AA-66, AK, AQ, KQs, JTs-67s Flop As8c7d When chkd to I'm going to bet 88,77, 78, AK, AQ for value (prob chk AA). I'm going to bluff w/ KQs, JTs, T9s, sometimes 67s, sometimes 66. After villain calls and the turn is 9c then he chks, hands I'm going to continue betting are.... almost all of them. I chkd back 89 but that has 2pr so now I'm betting. KQcc I'll continue betting, other KQs give up. JT now has a straight, 67 probably keeps bluffing because I have an open ender, 66 probably keeps bluffing too for the same reason. Villain calls, river is a 7s.... what hands am I still betting for value? 77, 88, JT, AK/AQ, 99. If villain knows my range here ... he realizes, IT'S REALLY STRONG. Only somewhat thin value bets are AK/AQ, so maybe he thinks he can get me off of those hands if he c/r bluffs. But if he was so worried about me having those hands and him being beat, he's almost always just going to fold and not turn his hand into a bluff because clearly my range is so strong here and like everyone here thinks, no one is going to fold very often with such a strong range to a c/r bluff. So what hands can he get to this point with after c/c twice? Most obvious ones in my mind are AA and 99. AA slowplaying flop and turn (seems like a bad play to me but people make dumb plays all the time), 99 is clearly the most obvious. It c/c the flop cuz it thinks no better hand folds and no worse hand calls (which isn't necessarily true but I can see why he'd think that). If he has KK or QQ I could see him c/c once or even twice, but at this river, cuz it seems so unlikely I'm folding to a c/r, seems like a pretty awful spot for him to consider one would work. Anything anybody said about guys having 67 or JT is just ridiculous. Like I said previously, if a good player c/c this flop w/ 67, he's 100% going to c/r or fold this turn given how strong my range is and how he picks up additional equity. 97 is not in any good regs UTG 3x opening range -- EVER -- It's too weak a hand to make a long term profit so I'm just going to ignore the fact that he could even have it. If he has AJ or AQ, he's going to think about either calling or folding. If he has TT it's kind of the same thought process along the lines of 67... his hand is toast on the turn, but it could be a good spot to c/r bluff with that hand. So pretty much I think every time he's bluffing I'm going to hear from him on the turn--after all, that's when the board gets most draw heavy and also the point where he can represent the most semi-bluffs in order to get me to call down light. Had this guy c/r this turn w/ 99 then jammed the river, pretty sure he 100% gets my whole stack, but clearly he's not that good. So that's my thoughts. None of it is trolling, ranges are just far more defined nowadays than when you used to play.

love posts and breakdowns like this.

i know its 200bb deep, but are 67s and 78s more profitable to call than KJs QTs AJs and 55 here in the hijack vs lojack?

I'm pretty sure u know the answers to those questions though.

I usually call here cuz his line is full of shit, even if he's gonna show up with 99 or AA sometimes, c/c flop and c/c turn when board is so drawy.....

oh and just because you learned some common sense regarding ur finances doesn't mean you're suddenly better at poker than me or any other pro in here for that matter, from what I know you don't even play heads up, so stop challenging people who are mocking you when they're really just disagreeing in a somewhat mean way

you really need to stop being so emotional and take everything everyone says about your game so personally

On July 26 2012 10:25 Fayth wrote: you really need to stop being so emotional and take everything everyone says about your game so personally

okay, thanks, ill try.