KQs semi deep

This was a late night session. So theres only around 15-20 tables running. Me and villain being on all of them. Tons of 4bet 5bet history. I was pretty flustered with the turn sizing, given theres about 280 or so behind. So i tanked for a good 20-30 seconds before i decided to call turn. Comments on all streets are appreciated.

Relevant stats. Villain is 26/20 10.4 3bet / 4bet range 2.6. Pretty solid as far as im concerned.

Submitted by : handbanana21

$200.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, July 02, 01:05:45 ET 2012
Table Bitias II Real Money
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: redacesfull $211.96 USD
Seat 2: SmbSmbSmb $209.24 USD
Seat 3: alloman $231.20 USD
Seat 4: Hero $492.39 USD
Seat 5: hysteric200 $482.14 USD
Seat 6: daribuc $204.61 USD
Hero posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
hysteric200 posts big blind [$2.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
daribuc folds
redacesfull folds
SmbSmbSmb raises [$4.00 USD]
alloman raises [$12.00 USD]
Hero raises [$27.00 USD]
hysteric200 raises [$58.00 USD]
SmbSmbSmb folds
alloman folds
Hero calls [$32.00 USD]

Flop (Pot : $133.00)

   
Hero checks
hysteric200 bets [$50.00 USD]
Hero calls [$50.00 USD]

Turn (Pot : $233.00)

   
Hero checks
hysteric200 bets [$90.00 USD]
Hero calls [$90.00 USD]

River (Pot : $413.00)

   
Hero checks

Im open to 6betting pre, I just felt majority of the time im up against Ax suited hands or offsuit broadways alot. And my hand plays very well vs that range.

if you have the dynamic for it, then i like 6 betting more than flatting. looks fine as played.
i like 6 betting more because i think initiative is a bigger advantage in 4bet+ pots than it is in single raised pots, probably because cbet sizes don't have to be as big and ranges are a little more defined.

if you are calling pf and flop isnt turn a pretty easy get it in

On July 02 2012 18:14 Stroggoz wrote: if you have the dynamic for it, then i like 6 betting more than flatting. looks fine as played. i like 6 betting more because i think initiative is a bigger advantage in 4bet+ pots than it is in single raised pots, probably because cbet sizes don't have to be as big and ranges are a little more defined.

Yea makes sense. I certainly wouldve 6bet KQo. But given the dynamic hes prob flatting 100% of his range to a 6bet due to the psr, and my range looks pretty damn polarized. So I think a 6bet to like 104 would be better in a vacuum.

On July 02 2012 19:08 PoorUser wrote: if you are calling pf and flop isnt turn a pretty easy get it in

I think the sizing threw me off. I wouldve c/jammed to a bet of like 140+. Whats the amount that we can call just for bare equity? ( I also had no river plans, when i decided to call the turn.) Is a c/ min raise better? That way we still can potentially have him reship or call with straight draws? Turn minraise would leave 215 or so behind.

looks like a simple preflop fold i can't imagine this call being profitable

as played i like turn call if he could be playing jj like this PF

i like shove if jj isn't in his range

You are getting direct odds even if no more money goes in when you hit, there is some reverse implied odds but I dont think its a huge factor. I think for a shove to be good you need him to fold roughly 25% of the time, so that cant be bad either. Clicking it back I dont know why but I dont like it.

I don't play deep all that often, but can someone explain why 6 betting KQ is good here? and are we 6betting with the intent to fold to 7 bet?

I suppose the main reason for 6 betting is because we are oop and we want the initiative?

On July 04 2012 19:53 patti wrote: I don't play deep all that often, but can someone explain why 6 betting KQ is good here? and are we 6betting with the intent to fold to 7 bet? I suppose the main reason for 6 betting is because we are oop and we want the initiative?

no one at any point said this was a good play, the discussion here is "as played what do we do"

On July 02 2012 19:08 PoorUser wrote: if you are calling pf and flop isnt turn a pretty easy get it in

Agreed. I'm shoving turn

On July 04 2012 21:28 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On July 04 2012 19:53 patti wrote: I don't play deep all that often, but can someone explain why 6 betting KQ is good here? and are we 6betting with the intent to fold to 7 bet? I suppose the main reason for 6 betting is because we are oop and we want the initiative? no one at any point said this was a good play, the discussion here is "as played what do we do"

actually someone suggested 6-betting was a good play which is what i assume he was talking about since there's no 6-bet in the actual hand

purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta.

i like folding pre. 6b looks better than a flat.
u said u dont think hes folding to a 6bet ever. i feel like that sometimes.
so fold and adjust, probably by playing a little tighter (as simple/dumb as that sounds)

edit:
i think about turn like this:
-case1:like to shove turn b/c it would be consistent with out flop line. we think hes wide blahblah.
-case2: if for some reason we called flop and turn despite thinking he had it, tank shoving river makes more sense than chking imo. he can make more mistakes w aggro hist? comments welcome

1 by far makes more sense to me but OP seems to want to play a lil 'what if'.

lol ... 200nl...talking about 6bet bluffing? rly? i think you guys gotta just game select better.

and... what pooruser said obv

On July 05 2012 14:08 handbanana21 wrote: purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta.

Or you could just play a standard abc game and get the regs to think you're trying to out-aggro them like most regs do anyway

On July 06 2012 17:44 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2012 14:08 handbanana21 wrote: purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta. Or you could just play a standard abc game and get the regs to think you're trying to out-aggro them like most regs do anyway

aand we have come full circle

On July 06 2012 17:44 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2012 14:08 handbanana21 wrote: purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta. Or you could just play a standard abc game and get the regs to think you're trying to out-aggro them like most regs do anyway

I dont know any of the top winners on stars that play abc. The table selecting abc style was fine in 2011, but the games have gotten significantly tougher since. If you dont earn an image, you just wont get paid off at 200nl+ stars.

On July 07 2012 13:47 handbanana21 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 06 2012 17:44 TimDawg wrote:   On July 05 2012 14:08 handbanana21 wrote: purely an as played spot. You cant pick your spots anymore, or you will just get raped on pokerstars. You have to combat aggression with aggression. I believe its a small -ev spot. That will def set up good meta. Or you could just play a standard abc game and get the regs to think you're trying to out-aggro them like most regs do anyway I dont know any of the top winners on stars that play abc. The table selecting abc style was fine in 2011, but the games have gotten significantly tougher since. If you dont earn an image, you just wont get paid off at 200nl+ stars.

i wish i knew how nanonokos style of using his image of never bluffing worked so well.