I've got 2,5 shrinks, it's mostly to due with (not sure if this is the English term for it), somatic suffering. And a chronic sleeping disorder. My body also doesn't take up molecyles that are difficult to take up. Because I'm always pumping out adrenalin, non adrenalin and kortisol. My mind is always racing, and I have a very hard time not thinking about stuff. (Other than that I'm pretty awesome).
I think I'm so good at analyzing people because I can relate to any of the suffering they may have endured. (If I've insinuated having analyzed you, that's been a joke btw). I also don't judge or analyze people via a forum, pm so forth. I also haven't done it in awhile.
That's one of the reasons I've got the somatic suffering. I put myself so much in someone elses's shoes that my body copies their ailments. And I start to get whatever it is they're suffering from. Only helped 1 person the last 7-8 months because of it. Someone I knew over the internet lost his wife, who he's been with for 6 years. I let him stay here for 5 days and fixed him up.
Most of the shrinks want me in a position to help people as well, although I'm humble and I feel I'm not smart enough, not qualified enough, or that it's beyond me. I also don't like the thought of all that responsibility.
So when I talk to people, and the way I listen let's them slowly but surely remove all the layers and shields. And once they're talking to me for real, I mostly listen, then I think about it for hours, then I get ideas and I know what to search for. Usually the next day I've got a lot of good shit to tell whoever I was helping.
Why do you need a poll, you want affirmations again? Like you do with all your quotes? Now you want to ridicule me further? Pffth, and I who had you in such high regards =p (I still do, but just in a very narrow field, you're not as awesome as I had hoped. Might be biased, since you keep on insulting me).
Making another post b/c it would have been disjointed to add at the end of the other one.
There is no parlaying. There is no winning here. I'm a bit shocked that you would think the Elephant Man could have had a life worth living. He was exploited until his death and lived most of his life in horrible pain, emotional and physical.
You are not and never will be the Elephant Man so how do you know how he felt?
Would you really want to 'make-do' as someone like him?
I don't know. I've never been the Elephant Man.
I don't think so. If you want to look at life as a game, it is a zero-sum game. And it is one rough lottery. But there is nothing to be won in this lottery. The only thing every alive thing can do is reduce its amount of suffering imposed on itself from being born into the world. Every moment is an escape from the present moment, a projection into the future, an imagining of what one ought to get in order to be satiated. All motivation is born from deprivation. A deprived state of being needing to be removed. Pleasure is a negative because it is the removal of a deprivation, which is the basic state of being. Were we to need to do nothing to sustain our bodies we would do nothing and kill ourselves out of boredom.
But we do need to do something to sustain our bodies. Can you go more in depth on why pleasure is a negative?
On July 01 2012 16:51 Highcard wrote:
First, thank you for the thoughtful response. It is always nice to see. But you have assumed some wrong things in your post. Let's start with this:
[quote]Unless you want to define what Future is? You would agree that predicting the result of the future is futile so we can get that out of the way. It is difficult to discern your actual view since you do not define it, instead I read fragmented ideas.
I definitely do not agree with this. I do believe we can predict our future. But that is clearly not the same as the future of the universe itself. I have said what I expected from humanity, and it was pretty clear that those expectations are very low, but I have not elaborated on what I expect will happen to humanity in the end. Unlike you, I am confident that by peering into the past we get to see what is to come in the future. Are there many factors that we cannot monitor and expect? Sure. But it changes little in this one equation. I am no mathematician, and I do not need to be to know that human motivation, as was previously mentionned by lebowski, always stems from self-interest. The presence of evil, of human greed and selfishness will not be altered through some "spontaneous reaction", and they will keep precipitating us towards our doom faster and faster. I think in many ways we are remarkable creatures with a remarkable past, but man has already given the best of himself; he has no future. The other animal species would have lasted millions of years if it weren't for mankind, but the human adventure simply cannot be indefinite.
It is interesting because long ago, the end of humanity took an eschatological sense, it was linked to the idea of salvation; nowadays we consider it as a fact (well, the ones who know best should), without any religious connotation, it is inscribed in our previsions. We know that it can end. And since then, all idea of progress has had something rotten in it.
I will define Future from my view by relating it to the past:
Since there is no 'timeline of events' for the future, talking about human's paths of destruction/fallacies/illusions are as irrelevant as irrelevancy is defined. Because you believe in evolution, you can see that it is not the false 'reality' of our lives or the universe that matters, it is the progression of time on the universe. Everything that has sparked evolution-progression, from the start of the universe, to the creation of life on earth, was a result from what? You mentioned earlier something along the lines of 'dumb luck', while close to my view, you have a more absolute and narrowed focused view. It was a spontaneous reaction, the result of the evolution of time, progressing to a point that allowed for this event to result. If you have studied the cosmos, our result is not unexpected. You don't even need to study the cosmos, a simple knowledge of mathematics tells you just by the result of us having this debate, proves how plausible life is. Thus, how plausible life proliferates in the universe shouldn't be a debate.
I don't know why you say the things you say and end with "just the result of us having this debate proves how plausible life is." No, it doesn't. It proves one occurrence over billions of years. That is clearly not very plausible.
If you believe we are actually the only 'intelligent' life or only life itself, than that view is as self-absorbed as the people you speak of.
I do think it is very unlikely we are the only life that exists considering how vast the cosmos is, but the evidence remains the evidence.
Man is not doomed by his very nature, because he cannot control the very nature of spontaneous events.
Well, that is the point. He is doomed by his very nature because he cannot control nature, no matter how much he tries. Our fate can be no different than the one of 99.9% of the species that have appeared on earth and gone extinct. The only real question is how and how fast it is going to happen. When people talk about building a better future, they are merely hopeful that we don't destroy the planet ourselves. But whether we do or don't, our end remains written, as certainly as yours and mine are certain. And God, I just hope this talk will not lead to a debate on transhumanism because I'm not singing up for that.
The idea of history endlessly repeating is not true and impossible because within the Future, lies spontaneity towards something different.
While there are unimaginable possibilities, 'spontaneity' remains limited. There are laws of nature that spontaneity will not and cannot touch. You have to consider that whatever the possibilities, like that of man evolving into something beyond material form, he will no longer be man. The fate of man as we know it is sealed.
The Future is our 'God' and the 'science' you proclaim to be wrong, though science cannot be described as wrong as its very designation is to evolve, is the true religion.
I have not said that "science is wrong", this is you misquoting me. I have said that when God took the door it has led people to instead put their faith in science and that it is simply the same wrong-minded attitude with a different target. Hope this clarifies a few things.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
There is no parlaying. There is no winning here. I'm a bit shocked that you would think the Elephant Man could have had a life worth living. He was exploited until his death and lived most of his life in horrible pain, emotional and physical.
You are not and never will be the Elephant Man so how do you know how he felt?
Would you really want to 'make-do' as someone like him?
I don't know. I've never been the Elephant Man.
I don't think so. If you want to look at life as a game, it is a zero-sum game. And it is one rough lottery. But there is nothing to be won in this lottery. The only thing every alive thing can do is reduce its amount of suffering imposed on itself from being born into the world. Every moment is an escape from the present moment, a projection into the future, an imagining of what one ought to get in order to be satiated. All motivation is born from deprivation. A deprived state of being needing to be removed. Pleasure is a negative because it is the removal of a deprivation, which is the basic state of being. Were we to need to do nothing to sustain our bodies we would do nothing and kill ourselves out of boredom.
But we do need to do something to sustain our bodies. Can you go more in depth on why pleasure is a negative?
Oh come on, don't play this game. You know exactly how you would feel if you woke up in his condition, assuming you know enough about the condition, you can imagine it.
The second question is the equivalent of telling me that I am not on the verge of dying in a concentration camp so I have no idea if the people in this situation find their life worth living. Again, come on.
As for your request, I am pretty tired of being in this thread and have spent a lot of time on it today, so I really don't want to elaborate. If you want to look into the matter more closely please go and read 'On the Sufferings of the World' by Arthur Schopenhauer. It is quite short and you can find it here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Sufferings_of_the_World
or if you prefer listening to it:
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On July 01 2012 19:27 RiKD wrote:
Making another post b/c it would have been disjointed to add at the end of the other one.
There is no parlaying. There is no winning here. I'm a bit shocked that you would think the Elephant Man could have had a life worth living. He was exploited until his death and lived most of his life in horrible pain, emotional and physical.
You are not and never will be the Elephant Man so how do you know how he felt?
Would you really want to 'make-do' as someone like him?
I don't know. I've never been the Elephant Man.
I don't think so. If you want to look at life as a game, it is a zero-sum game. And it is one rough lottery. But there is nothing to be won in this lottery. The only thing every alive thing can do is reduce its amount of suffering imposed on itself from being born into the world. Every moment is an escape from the present moment, a projection into the future, an imagining of what one ought to get in order to be satiated. All motivation is born from deprivation. A deprived state of being needing to be removed. Pleasure is a negative because it is the removal of a deprivation, which is the basic state of being. Were we to need to do nothing to sustain our bodies we would do nothing and kill ourselves out of boredom.
But we do need to do something to sustain our bodies. Can you go more in depth on why pleasure is a negative?
Oh come on, don't play this game. You know exactly how you would feel if you woke up in his condition, assuming you know enough about the condition, you can imagine it.
The second question is the equivalent of telling me that I am not on the verge of dying in a concentration camp so I have no idea if the people in this situation find their life worth living. Again, come on.
As for your request, I am pretty tired of being in this thread and have spent a lot of time on it today, so I really don't want to elaborate. If you want to look into the matter more closely please go and read 'On the Sufferings of the World' by Arthur Schopenhauer. It is quite short and you can find it here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Sufferings_of_the_World
or if you prefer listening to it:
Thank you for the reading suggestion. If it does not answer my questions I hope at some point in the future you can elaborate and discuss some more. Always a pleasure (and/or stimulating deception).
Loco let me ask you with your pessimistic view, would you rather have not been born? How many of the miserable people on this miserable earth would rather have nothing instead of their life experience?
I guess that almost everyone alive today would rather experience life than have nothing, including yourself.
You are confusing facts with current knowledge, those two are not identical.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
as always i like to play a bit of freedom/choice/action/attitude devil's advocate.
re: elephant man
There is no denying that that would be a pretty shitty starting point/situation but he certainly had the opportunity to parlay that into making some scratch and trying to find some meaning. He could find an elephant woman or women w/ elephant man fetishes online, join a freak show circuit and make some friends, w/e he wants to try and experience, accomplish, acquire, build.
Starving kids in Africa is much tougher. How much reason, agency, responsibility can small children really have?
When faced with that reality it's hard to know what to think especially since most people, myself included, "delude" themselves by just not thinking about it. Changing the channel or riding a different ride like I have said in previous posts.
Currently, I have about 0 impact utility wise on making any sort of dent in that situation. I could make it my life's work to try and become a famous billionaire so i would have some impact utility wise in changing the situation but the situation is still probably going to be shitty. That sounds extremely frustrating and depressing.
Life can be extremely frustrating and depressing no matter what you do so I just try to take the evidence and information available and try and make choices based on that evidence/information that lead to the opposite of frustrating and depressing outcomes.
As always, we don't exist, then we do, then we don't but it certainly doesn't seem meaningless while spending time in that place you want to be, doing those things you want to be doing with people (or lack of people) you want to be with.
It comes down to semantics:
Does occupation/transcendence/losing ones' self = delusion?
Does occupying a consciousness with fun, enjoyable, stimulating, passionate occupation/meaning = deluding ones' self?
Can one find "meaning" in a "meaningless" existence?
There is no parlaying. There is no winning here. I'm a bit shocked that you would think the Elephant Man could have had a life worth living. He was exploited until his death and lived most of his life in horrible pain, emotional and physical. Would you really want to 'make-do' as someone like him? I don't think so. If you want to look at life as a game, it is a zero-sum game. And it is one rough lottery. But there is nothing to be won in this lottery. The only thing every alive thing can do is reduce its amount of suffering imposed on itself from being born into the world. Every moment is an escape from the present moment, a projection into the future, an imagining of what one ought to get in order to be satiated. All motivation is born from deprivation. A deprived state of being needing to be removed. Pleasure is a negative because it is the removal of a deprivation, which is the basic state of being. Were we to need to do nothing to sustain our bodies we would do nothing and kill ourselves out of boredom.
Yes, "changing channels" is living with illusions. To protect ourselves from harm we are automatically going to do this. We cannot live while being truly conscious of things as they really are. Reality is the void. "We define only out of despair, we must have a formula... to give a facade to the void." To live is to deceive oneself over and over again.
What's the difference between deceiving and distracting, satiating, or even healing?
If one is feeling pain they take an aspirin. If one is hungry they can eat. If one is thirsty they can drink. There is no deception there. If one is feeling the pain of existence well they can go through easy ones like sleep, eat, drink then if that doesn't work they can try other remedies. Is deception the best word?
Indeed, there is no deception there. But you are merely naming animal pleasures and assuming that those two humans are having at it like other animals. The nonhuman animal is truthful in doing all these things because that is all that he does and desires. He is merely driven by the will without engaging in thought about it. This is not the case with us, so you are not taking into account the meaning horizon, that necessary dimension in the life of the human being, which is what introduces the self-deceit. To constantly look for meaning when there is none in actuality is to deceive oneself. This is not a choice at all, this is what being human is.
I would say that distracting is just avoidance of what is. Deceiving is believing in something different from the truth. The second is obviously a lot worse because it will change the emotions felt by the observer. A good example is the comforting "it was God's plan" when some tragedy happens.
Short Story:
Male and female partners are sitting in a room.
Female: "You know that life's a bitch and then you die right? We don't exist, then we randomly exist, then at some point we don't exist and there isn't any meaning to it."
Male: "Yup, so let's smoke this green, drink this champagne, eat these chocolate covered strawberries and fuck."
Male and Female smoke that green, drink that champagne, eat those chocolate covered strawberries and lose themselves in fucking.
The End.
Is this some big deception/facade or is it just 2 ppl tryin to live and healing the pain of existence?
If it is some big deception/facade what is the problem?
If it is some big deception/facade, out of curiosity what do you like to do to deceive yourself?
Well, like I just said, there is no other choice. It is not the doing, not the activities themselves that are deceiving, but the meaning conferred to them. Living and self-deceit are inseparable because for as long as you live it is "equivalent to an act of faith, a protest against the truth, an interminable prayer." And "as soon as they consent to live, the unbeliever and the man of faith are fundamentally the same, since both have made the only decision that defines a being."
But some rare human beings have managed to see things as they really are; most of them for short periods, because the individual cannot survive in nothingness.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
On July 01 2012 22:08 Zorglub wrote:
Loco let me ask you with your pessimistic view, would you rather have not been born? How many of the miserable people on this miserable earth would rather have nothing instead of their life experience?
I guess that almost everyone alive today would rather experience life than have nothing, including yourself.
I would have rather, yes, but I don't dwell on it ever. It's a useless thought to have. If I'm so miserable I would rather just end my life than complain about it.
And as for the second question, Schopenhauer had an interesting thought-experiment. Were we to have the power, we could ask dead people if they wanted to come back to life, and they have the choice to accept or decline, and we could grant them their wish. How many do you think would choose to come back rather than stay in peaceful rest?
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Why didn't you end your life then? Why do you keep hanging on?
What is this nothingness? Can nothingness even exist without its opposite everything? If so, how would you know it is nothingness when you don't have anything to compare it with?
Personally I would rather have something instead of nothing, but that is just me.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
What do you mean why? I just told you I would if I were miserable enough.
"What is nothingness" etc., is a philosophical inquiry that is fun to look into and I don't have any brief answer for you there. But you would know because it cannot be compared to anything else, it is the experience of Nirvana in Buddhism or Moksha in Hinduism -- liberation from the will.
fuck I should just sell some of my Pokemon cards, if no one stakes that is what I will have to do - lostaccount
Loco, do you still play poker? If so what's the point? I remember you being a very good player before but I find it hard to imagine with your views now that you would be motivated enough to grind out sessions on a regular basis. I mean, poker is really hard enough now even for optimists.
On July 01 2012 22:37 Loco wrote:
What do you mean why? I just told you I would if I were miserable enough.
"What is nothingness" etc., is a philosophical inquiry that is fun to look into and I don't have any brief answer for you there. But you would know because it cannot be compared to anything else, it is the experience of Nirvana in Buddhism or Moksha in Hinduism -- liberation from the will.
Apparently you aren't miserable enough to kill yourself, thus you, like almost everybody else on this earth would rather have your life experience, than nothing. So life does at least give meaning/pleasure etc. to make it worth more than nothing.
A concept that is noncomparable is nonsensical, because all we can do in our human existence is to compare things. If you can not tell what a thing/concept/idea etc. is NOT, then that thing/concept/idea makes no sense at all. It is undefineable in logic, just like divide by zero in mathematics. In Physics it would be like general relativity without anything to relate to. In social sciences we call them women.
You mention Buddhism and Hinduism, I would recommend you examine concepts like "Brahman", "Dharma" and "Maya" in Hinduism and compare it with Schopenhauer's "The world as will and representation". If you view this from an optimistic point of view, the world has endless possibilities and opportunities, it is just up to you to use your will and representation to unleash them.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
While we are at Nirvana and Moksha, let me ask you a question I have pondered myself. Would you rather cease to exist completely or have the experience you do now? Would you rather live your exact same life again or experience nothing? What is worse than nothing?
Only eternal torment and extreme misery are worse than nothing, and even the most unlucky humans have points of happiness and pleasure in their lives. For most humans these good times makes up for the miserable moments and makes the overall experience of life better than experiencing nothing.
I started out with nothing and I still got most of it left
I had to skip past a bunch of this thread because I have a nasty disgust with grotesque photos
but u said human modivation stems from self interest.. this is not true, this is an ideal that most people become accustomed to living in 21st century... imagine begin born into a generation 100 years ago at the start of the world wars, you would be drafted into a war to defend the ideals of your nation. perhaps you choose to flee because your self-interest thought it be the right choice, but millions of solider united amongest different nations to defend against an evil tyranny.
the point is you need to be thankful for the generations before you that gave up their lives for your freedom to pursue your own life and your own self interests.
look at this evil motherfking picture imagine having to give up your freedom to his ideals, your lucky.
or imagine being born 200+ years from now when technology surpasses the pace for self destruction and we find planets we can inhabit and colonize. people are going to sign up regardless of their self-interest because they beleive in a greater purpose beyond themselves. We live in a generation with no purpose, only purpose is our lives (tyler durden yo?).. but seriously we have the freedom to do what we like and this is the greatest gift you can receive. personally I dont care what other people do with their time and money, yes it pains me to see a waste of breath but at the end I dont care. its what I do with my time and money that matters to me, and what i want out of my future.
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