50bb Postflop Fundamentals

I've recently been varying my stacksizes up and buying in for 45-65bb depending on table conditions, and it has been working fairly well.

Can anyone on here who specializes at 50bb play or is just really good all around explain to me how postflop play with 50bb stacks is different from 100bb? Specifically how you adjust your flop and turn cbet ranges.

And are there any fundamental preflop adjustments?
Things like 'can we size smaller reisoing vs a 60bb's iso?'(I think yes. like -1bb from my standard). And facing a reiso to 12bb over his 4bb iso, can 60bb hero only call or shove? Can we min4bet bluff vs a polar range to 20bb? (imo the threshold is like 70-75bb here)


Eg: In 3bet pots there is a turn psr of around 1 w/ 60bb (10+10 3bet+call flop, 40 in middle, 40 behind).This simplifies things greatly for the aggressor and 100bb players probably aren't trained well enough to play against 60bb specialists optimally.
Checkshoving flop is also a viable option with chunks of your range as the aggressor.

I'm trying to figure out single raised pots but a lot of it seems to come from experience. Hence the thread. Hopefully the stuff of what I've been experimenting with give a good idea of what I'm asking.

For play 50bb deep, minraise from all spots, maybe you can 2.5x from UTG and MP. Make your 3bets always at most 3x, so if they minraise 2bb, you 3bet to 6bb. Make half pot sized bets on all streets and you should do pretty well.

But you are saying other guys are sitting 100bb deep? You should just sit in and cover them.

agree with what marshall said^^^

thanks.
I know you taught me to just 100bb as often as possible, but I've started to think there are spots where we can stack select better. useful if you play few tables.

like if you have four 50bb fish sitting adjacent to eachother, and a competent reg on your left at 100bb. If you know your 50bb game better than him, I'd argue your winrate in that gamestate is clearly higher than sitting 100bb.

-Theoretically you reduce his positional advantage.
-Lots of pre and postflop spots where if you put the time in and study you can play better than him.

gtfo

On June 04 2012 19:41 dogmeat wrote: gtfo

this

Why would you want to change your opening raise size based on your stack size at 50bb? Is it all just an attempt to keep your stack-pot-ratio the same as playing fullstacked? Do we also raise bigger when we're deep to keep the same SPR? It seems to me like all you would lose is your implied odds with certain hands, otherwise just raise like you normally would and get it in faster when you hit.

On June 08 2012 15:18 NewbSaibot wrote: Why would you want to change your opening raise size based on your stack size at 50bb? Is it all just an attempt to keep your stack-pot-ratio the same as playing fullstacked? Do we also raise bigger when we're deep to keep the same SPR? It seems to me like all you would lose is your implied odds with certain hands, otherwise just raise like you normally would and get it in faster when you hit.

No, definitely not. If that were the case you'd have to open for 3000bb with some absurdly huge stack. The real reason why people raise less is because it's less tempting for opponents to call when there is less of a stack for them to win, so you offer them a slightly better price to keep their decisions difficult and your steals cheaper.

However, the reduced betsizes are not normally proportional to how much smaller your stack is, so you should still "get it in faster" as you put it, even though your open may have been smaller.

On May 29 2012 19:14 MARSHALL28 wrote: Make half pot sized bets on all streets

I think this leads to some really akward river stacksizes, no? When the stacks are so small, shouldn't your basic bet-bet-bet line be one that ends up getting it allin with the final bet?

I think a better strat would be to have your betsizes vary according to the initial potsize on the flop and try to get in your 50bb stack or whatever by the river.

if you open for min, get called by the button and others fold, the potsize would be 5.5bb on the flop. In that case, betting about 80% on each street would already get the stacks in

It's not exactly correct that you always want to set it up so that you can get your whole stack into the pot by the river with the river not being an overbet. That's not the most +ev way to play. You don't have to leverage your entire stack in every situation. I know this is an exaggerated example, but I'm just stating it in order to make a point......just because you might be like 1000bb deep doesn't mean you should be overbetting every street in order to get all the money in by the river with both your bluffing and value ranges.

If you make half pot bets on all streets you'll be fine. If you sometimes half pot flop, half pot turn, then overbet jam river, that's going to be fine too. Just don't get too hung up on needing to have your river bet not be an overbet shove. It's something I struggled with for quite a while until I saw so many HS players not being concerned with that idea. And once I took it to heart, I started to profit more as well.

I think I said this before, but the HS guys all wanna play each street individually. While SSNL and MSNL players generally want to have a plan for how they are playing each street and each card before they fall. It's far more difficult to do it the way the HS guys do it, but that's one of the reasons they play higher stakes. They adapt so quickly and think so well on their feet. I really think that's what we should really all be aiming for.

It's kind of annoying that when I ask

On June 08 2012 18:00 Jelle wrote: I think this leads to some really akward river stacksizes, no? When the stacks are so small, shouldn't your basic bet-bet-bet line be one that ends up getting it allin with the final bet?

you reply "no, for example if you have 1000bb, you shouldn't". I am asking about small stacksizes specifically.

can you give an example of a hand where you have 50bb (or less), it's a raised pot, you want to bet all 3 streets for value, yet not get it allin? Can you see yourself doing that with, for example, an overpair?

I would just feel terrible if the opponent is coolered and gets all the way to showdown for a price of 25bb or whatever it is. When he wants to see the showdown, it's super cheap. And when he has us coolered or wants to bluff, he gets to raise the river and easily get it in.


I understand from your last post you don't like to generalise and want to play each spot individually, be in the moment etc., but I am pretty sure basic guidelines is what the OP is asking for.

What's keeping you from overbet shoving the river if you feel your opponent's calling range is wide enough for it to be more profitable from a normal bet? It's not like we are talking about 400bb pots when river overbets become much scarier to face. If you start with 50bb, the most the guy can lose is 50bb so you should be able to get calls a bit more frequently.

It's just a matter of like, estimating his calling range and calling frequency to different sized bets. If he calls a higher frequency with a wider range to an overbet then that's the best play on the river, if he has a tighter calling range and is generally fairly tight, make a smaller bet to ensure you get called. This is common sense here dude.

If the opponent is coolered, it usually doesn't matter much what you do, because all the money is getting into the pot most of the time. You shouldn't care about the "cooler" spots, because that's not where you actually make a profit -- those hands play themselves. Get what I'm sayin?

stop killing r bottom line scum

but in all seriousness if you wanna learn how to be a gay faggit pokerstrategy.com we need more canadian blood

In general, smaller bets/raises all around(except when shoving of course).

Bigger cards go up in value. Lower cards go down in value.

People will 3bet and bluff-raise you less(but smarter people will do these with a wider value/semi-bluff range).

You basically gotta play a lot more straightforward.

op is a fag!

when there were 50bb tables on stars games were really soft, people dont adjust, atleast at the limits you play (i mean if you want to play 50bbs deep you obviously dont play mid-highstakes) so if you cant take advantage of it its +ev playing ss, but i dont think its long term ev since 100bb is the way to go.

dood u have 50 bbs...is there even any decisions other than extremely trivial ones? ;o

to minraise or not to minraise that is the question

lool dgmt

Thanks marshall.

I think half-half-with option of overbet shoving answers Jelle's question quite well.

On June 26 2012 01:43 Target-x17 wrote: stop killing r bottom line scum but in all seriousness if you wanna learn how to be a gay faggit pokerstrategy.com we need more canadian blood

If you employ the strategy I outlined against guys playing 50bb stacks, they have no inherent edge over you unles they are specifically a better hand reader.

If you wanna be pissed at anyone, it should be me for giving away the correct strategy on a public forum.

I don't agree w/ the idea of buying in for 50bb at a 100bb max buy in game because it implies that the player feels he has less of an edge at 100bb depth against average regulars which is seems kinda silly to me honestly for someone like semper who has put a ton of work into his game.