another live hand, 1/2nl

5 limpers, im SB with 58o and i call. table is about the most passive table ever preflop, most players limp almost any hand and some do limp any hand. BB checks

flop 55T rainbow. i check, and it checks around to the button who bets 15 at the pot of 14. i call, everyone else folds. the button has about 500 i have about 800.

at this point lets quickly zoom to 10 hands in the past because it's relevant to the decision i make. i've seen this guy being kind of cautious but in particular i had this hand with him:

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so back to the hand.

the turn is 8. so its T558. i check again. he bets like 40 which is almost pot and i raise it to 100. he doesn't think too long and he calls.

river is J. T558J. I barrel out for 200.

... he then shoves for his last 200 or so.

i fucking puked. well not literally, but its how i felt. after some muttering and squirming i folded my hand

after i folded he shows

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do y'all think this was a good laydown anyways? is it even reasonable to ask opinions about this hand

i dunno ive been running kinda bad lol and this hand just made me feel soooo sick

this is always a full house, seems like a good fold

really surprised at his shove though

Its a disciplined lay-down imo, well-played. I would have lead the flop though

you fold because you think your beat but im trying to put him on a hand, theoretically only exactly 1 hand beats you, J5 suited. does he not raise on button with 88 maybe. does he bet full pot with 88 on flop and catch the case 8 on turn? does he full pot with T5 suited? does he even play T5 suited? even tho the river shove is never a bluff, i would still call. Mainly, because first, its 1/2 lols. People are retarded and sometimes you cant understand their reasoning. some who are cautious with a J high flush might think A5 is the nuts here. and 2 well only 1 hand beats you

personally. i can never fold this at 1/2. i rather pay it off than fold and feel gross.

I think we have to assume this guy plays both j5 and t5s. Usually people are gonna raise 88 and TT but its possible that 1/2 live plays would limp those too.

On the other side of the coin we're getting like 4.5/1 pot odds here?

Your turn raise is way too small imo, make it 130ish and shove river yourself (problem solved)

On May 04 2012 09:36 Fraser wrote: I think we have to assume this guy plays both j5 and t5s. Usually people are gonna raise 88 and TT but its possible that 1/2 live plays would limp those too. On the other side of the coin we're getting like 4.5/1 pot odds here?

villain can def have 88/TT

also it's not like villain is shoving trips ever. this is always a full house.

i'm actually really surprised villain shoved such a small full hosue

I think I would definitivly call...

But I have played italian live games so im probably used to too much insane stuff

you put to much money in on the turn/river to hero fold...

this looks like a really standard bet/fold vs most live noobs. unless we have a reason not to

Honestly I think you can go ahead and pitch such a hand pre even against really weak players, as for postflop Im not surprised he would shove with such a weak boat but it def wouldnt occur to me to add that into his range in that moment so I dont mind the fold.

pot is 7 ways limped and he folds in the small blind ewwww. hes gona be the kid that everyone picks on at school.

didnt see results, c/r turn to 200 and shove river, as played I still call cuz fuck him, also prob smash flop too either lead or c/r

writing as I read: your thought process seems a bit off in a couple spots:

I think you should examine your default plays in spots similar to the history hand. T6hh.
I obv agree w turn brl; I feel a lot of live players fold the scarecard. I *do not* want to fire river when he calls because I think stubborn pairs are all I'm targeting, and that's a small subset of hands (floated Ax, twopairs and sets lots of live players don't fastplay..meaning they are less capped. still wide so you can barrel wide for valu/bluff, but have strong hands you dont expect online players to have). having this plan in mind allows us to bomb turn huge happily and feel great giving up rivers. related to below, I think if you are ever tripling here, the flush coming in is great. live players love to put people on hands instead of ranges.

OTR note river is a scarecard.

Two thoughts:
-I have no clue why your first instinct is to check. You have a flush live. I wonder if you are not vbetting thin enough. I think this is a big fundamental thing for live.
-Your bet should not be big, he will be scared. I look at the guy and let that influence his range. Most guys will be /look weak or uninterested in putting more money in the pot. Some $ small dollar amount *irrelevant to size of pot* is the way to go. Like $25 because it's just $25. If he looks stronger I'll bet something around 2/3, or possibly sizing based on the size of the last bet (which live players do think about. ie, $60 on turn into 100, 180 into 220 on riv is 3x the last bet. this is how droolers think about betsizing). The point is you want to maximize based on as many relevant factors as possible. Your opinion on my assumptions might change, but betting 80% because it's a reasonably auto-riverbet sizing with a flush there is a leak. there are always situations where hes never folding and you should overshove. look at this every time.

I hope I've written this as consistently as it came together in my mind. there are a few ideas. basically:
the turn is enough against most players. worth repeating that i fire 2 and give up river a lot here, and adjust vs guys sticky on turns...primarily by cbetting less instead of 'oh fuck lets triple his ass every time'.
flush is scary for live players and that should influence sizing.
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on to your hand:
he has 385 otr. you have to call 185/1k final pot.
I actually don't think this is a big deal. I lean towards folding but tend to be really flexible based on reads/appearances and count in random 5% spaz.
would he ship discounted jt/97/5x you beat?
It's really not worthy of a big discussion. To me it sounds like you have some fundamental things to think about that would affect your bottom line more.

-I'd have folded pre, this is near the top of my folding range tho. (this is also not a big deal, but imo its much closer to neutral ev that most people think)
-I'd have led flop and sized turn larger (hes betting 40/45, why lose value with a gay 2.5x?).

Random thought: I think the edge really good regs have here is less so in pure strategy, and more how they can frame the hand in a way that keeps their emotions stable.

anyway takeaway is think about postflop more prob.

I didn't read all the replies, but in case nobody pointed it out...you made the same mistake in this hand as you did in the other one. You are making your turn and river bets without thinking about effective stacks. If you are never going to fold to his jam you should just overbet and stick it in yourself--you really only allow yourself to get it in against better when you take the line that you chose here. Otherwise, leave yourself some room to fold. W/ that hand though I would have raised turn bigger and just jammed river tho...and I'd fold pre.