some stupid live hand

ok so im playing 1/2nl its 9 handed

it plays closer to 2/4 than 1/2 though, but i guess thats probably how most live games are


anyways i get AsQs in middle position, and raise to 17 vs like 3 limpers. Button and sb call me.

flop comes Qx3x6s rainbow I cbet for 35 into pot of like 55

only the button calls.

at this point i will tell you i start the hand like 900 deep and he is like 450 deep to start it


the turn is another Q so we got Q36Q total rainbow.

the player im playing vs isnt too great. kind of loose kind of dumb sometimes... I don't have much experience with him in the couple hours i was there other than that he's just done some real dumb stuff occasionally. not often, but occasionally. he's also shown down what would be some looser calls preflop.


so anyways i expect him to only call a big turn bet from me if he has Qx, maybe try to steal if i check, or probably bet Qx if i check if he has it. so i check. he bets 50 into the pot of like 120

i call. river is 9. so Q36Q9.

i check river. he bets 50 again. so obviously i think I should raise here, so i make it 200. he shoves in for his last 160.

so im like "oh, fucking great". "well I have to call" then i call.



did i play this hand sub optimally?

i would have have c/r the turn and really look for tells

i think a snap call is a Qx or weaker 100% of the time
i think a timebank call can be a Qx as well
i think a timebank raise is a hand that beats Qx

if he let me i would have shoved the river :o after c/r turn

but something i've noticed is that live players wet themselves with the nuts and are so incapable of slow playing the nuts.

Bet the turn imo. as played call i guess

snapcall

also, bet bet shove

flop : you bet 35/59 [ 3x17 + 4x2 (3 limp +bb) ] , I would bet something between 40 and 45
turn : bomb it like 90% pot , a bet that allow you to shove the river.
river : shove , proffit.

You made a mistake on the turn , river it's a mandatory value raise ( and call after the raise obv )

If he shows you a full it's a cooler , there is nothing to do especially against a drooler.

check turn is fine for me if he definitvly likes to float, but also I prefer bet bet bet

your hand looks retardedly strong so i can't see you being ahead here but on the other hand he's also a 1/2 live donk so i never have any fucking clue in these situations. i'd probably bet/bet/bet and be disgusted when he shows me 66 or smth

If this guy has a boat then he played the hand like a superstar with a inducer bet on river. i actually like your play with disguising your hand on the turn much more than betting out. as played you must call off. he can be value shoving worse even tho you are beat here a good time.

Unless I have a read that he thinks im very weak and will bomb the turn and river thinking I'm afraid of the queen, I'm going to bet turn and river. Way to much value not too.


He had the SB left to act behind him so he probably has some sort of hand, and he seems like a call station. So go for value obv.

he had 66 obv

I'd prob go 35/80/180, fold to raise.

edit: oh i thought 700 deep for both. Yeah bet/bet/shove seems the most likely to get a hero calldown from a worse Q or 99 or something.

99 will own us

yea bet/bet/shove is really standard here...pretty much every Qx is in his range as he's a retard.

and nigga is not folding that Qx.

bet bet shove

They put u on AK.

On May 09 2012 07:55 Joe wrote: bet bet shove They put u on a bluff

fyp

AK is a bluff, w/e

but i just think checking turn is a huge mistake

bet turn. agree w/ timdawg. explaining may be lengthy so lmk if you want it but it is clearly better to bet here without more info.
related to ur other thread (85), examine your thought process here: observing live players you can get enough info that u can just have really clear stress free decisions.

"so anyways i expect him to only call a big turn bet from me if he has Qx(1), maybe try to steal if i check(2), or probably bet Qx if i check if he has it(3). so i check. he bets 50 into the pot of like 120"
(1):
-u sure about that? if so are you bluffing this river enough b/c soooo much of his flop calling range should snapfold then.
-why does it have to be a big bet?
(2):
-quantify 'maybe'. Given pre/flop, I'd lean towards "rarely". But this is very player/situation dependant.
(3):
-i agree but how much? when u think about that, how do u expect the hand to play out?
the 2 scenarios we want to roughly model in our heads are one-we get more money from bottom of his range, two-we get more money from top of his range. basically 'am i gonna stack his more parts of his range by betting, and is that value comprable to letting him bet with worse (and getting value when we otherwise wouldn't have). the value needs to make up for value we lose from not taking a bet bet bet line.

weirdly enough this should get you like 75% of the way to why betting turn is better. funfun!

as played disagree w cr turn...think abt range ur targeting when u check, and that sizing.
i probably size riv smaller but not a big big deal as u are repping bluffs. i think his bet/c range is very elastic there, ppl look u up with pairs worse than 9x vs a minraise...its worth thinking about.

daniel, live is so different from online. I don't even think they are the same game anymore. It could be true OP has the read that villain really does fold to a turn bet with everything but a queen. If you have that read, you get to just print money against them.

I like the way the hand was played given the read you had. Definitely I would have just stuck it in over his 50 bet on the river, he's never folding KQ QJ QT. Dude is obviously super dumb too, because if he had a set he really wants to make his bet super big on the river to ensure he gets paid off by Qx. The majority of live players IME don't understand combinatorics at all.

(Talking about postflop here and ignoring the river call which I think is trivial.)

Agree live and online are completely different games.
I'd question how good your read could be over "a couple hours" (<100 hands against a player). You get impressions...often enough to sway a decision, but on that board, a poor player folding 'everything but a queen' is a stretch, don't you think?
I'll add that I've played a couple hundred hours of live at similar stakes since we've last talked, hoping the risk of sounding douchey balances with the "my opinion comes from experience and not just a pretentious online-players-better-than-live-players mindset" sentiment that I'd like to get across.


Something I didn't think about before: If you have the impression that he'll fold a lot to a normal turn valuebet, I see a great argument for betting 1/4 or less (depending on the best size you think will get an induce, or ignoring that, multistreet calldown). Basically we can have a really great c/c range, and the effective nuts doesn't need to be a part of it.

imo with this hand vs a lot of players, <half on turn, <half on river is a probably the line that gets u max value from widest range. tailor depending on variables like how he calls.

i like the check/call on the turn.... but i think you need to lead the river. you are losing so much value when he checks behind (which should be quite often)

On May 27 2012 23:50 SemPeR wrote: (Talking about postflop here and ignoring the river call which I think is trivial.) Agree live and online are completely different games. I'd question how good your read could be over "a couple hours" (<100 hands against a player). You get impressions...often enough to sway a decision, but on that board, a poor player folding 'everything but a queen' is a stretch, don't you think? I'll add that I've played a couple hundred hours of live at similar stakes since we've last talked, hoping the risk of sounding douchey balances with the "my opinion comes from experience and not just a pretentious online-players-better-than-live-players mindset" sentiment that I'd like to get across. Something I didn't think about before: If you have the impression that he'll fold a lot to a normal turn valuebet, I see a great argument for betting 1/4 or less (depending on the best size you think will get an induce, or ignoring that, multistreet calldown). Basically we can have a really great c/c range, and the effective nuts doesn't need to be a part of it. imo with this hand vs a lot of players, <half on turn, <half on river is a probably the line that gets u max value from widest range. tailor depending on variables like how he calls.

Yeah, agree w/ everything. I just talk to a few more live players nowadays about hands than I used to and they constantly tell me how they have these very specific reads about how people play on board pairs and they seem super confident in them. Yeah I agree w/ you that it seems like a stretch for some of them to actually have those kinds of reads because I personally never make them, but if they are so sure, who am I to say they are wrong?

LOL I've never thought anything you've written sounded douchey, maybe just a little long winded sometimes. Obv not to say I don't have plenty of my own short-comings, haha.