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whamm!   Albania. Mar 14 2012 07:41. Posts 11625

LoL
source
http://kotaku.com/5893136/league-of-legends-is-the-new-starcraft-in-korea

I guess casual gaming is the new hardcore esport in Korea since people are already out of recession and they have better things to do than play games 12 hours a day.

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EvilSky    Czech Republic. Mar 14 2012 08:01. Posts 8915

Korea, I am disappoint :[


Svenman87   United States. Mar 14 2012 08:19. Posts 4636

Casual? -_-; obv you haven't played much high level elo matches.


qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 14 2012 08:26. Posts 14026

In after someone claims its as hardcore as Starcraft or any of the original eSports games.


qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 14 2012 08:40. Posts 14026

RTS community is going to experience the same shit the FPS community had when games like Halo gained mass popularity. Enjoy your slowed down dumb as shit babbys first esport


Stroggoz   New Zealand. Mar 14 2012 08:59. Posts 5291


  On March 14 2012 07:40 byrnesam wrote:
RTS community is going to experience the same shit the FPS community had when games like Halo gained mass popularity. Enjoy your slowed down dumb as shit babbys first esport



i already experienced that when starcraft 2 came out, i guess this will be even worse

One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings 

Stroggoz   New Zealand. Mar 14 2012 09:02. Posts 5291

rip broodwar

One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beings 

xicotaSLB   Portugal. Mar 14 2012 09:21. Posts 1128

rip bw.. rip euro/american LoL pro teams.


Raidern   Brasil. Mar 14 2012 09:31. Posts 4243

if at least it was dota 2 T_T

im a regular at nl5 

wobbly_au   Australia. Mar 14 2012 10:22. Posts 6540

lol @ lol ?

The Last Laugh. 

TheLink   Australia. Mar 14 2012 10:31. Posts 406

LoL better than DotA anyday. Herpaderp I can deny but theres no such thing as timing and strategy. Just wander jungle until I bump into someone.

Only semi-trolling, do prefer LoL though. Having said that yeah, what people like Flash do in BW is far more impressive than anything the LoL or SC2 community can spit out.


[GiTM]-Ace   United States. Mar 14 2012 10:46. Posts 1585

is LoL the same kind of game as Dota2 and HoN?

[GiTM]- GoSu in the Making 

ggplz   Sweden. Mar 14 2012 10:50. Posts 16784

easiest to get into right? it's gotta be in basically all internet cafe/pc bangs and you don't need to pay anything extra to play it

if poker is dangerous to them i would rank sports betting as a Kodiak grizzly bear who smells blood after you just threw a javelin into his cub - RaiNKhAN 

hording   Sweden. Mar 14 2012 11:57. Posts 474

esport is dead. (died together with BW)


lebowski   Greece. Mar 14 2012 12:14. Posts 9205

esports died with doom 2

new shit has come to light... a-and... shit! man... 

Carreira   Peru. Mar 14 2012 12:25. Posts 154

Obviously LoL is easier than SC2, pro gamers from SC2 can do impressive things.

Still for me LoL is the best moba style game on the market so far, the fact that you cant deny creeps doesnt make it easier, makes it different.

Competitive matches are pretty entertaining tho, last IEM tournament finals M5 (only russian famous team and the best in the world right now) played in a completely different way than teams use to, changing the meta and destroying a team that was supposed to give them a decent fight (Dignitas).

Give the game a chance, dont judge it just because the graphics are kinda cartoonish.

Your a retarded taco eating bad fuckin poker player. lolololoLast edit: 14/03/2012 12:26

Stim_Abuser   United States. Mar 14 2012 13:14. Posts 7499

Makes me feel old.


When I see people playing these new games, I get that old man get off my lawn mode of, " Back in my day we played games that weren't catered to noobies like you. "

My brother in law & my nephew LOVE modern warfare series. Play it ALL the time. Whenever I go visit and they're playing all I can think of is ugh, this shit is horrible compared to CS. A fucking joystick? Drop my CS player with my mouse in this server and I'd fucking massacre all 30 of the players 1000-0.

Same with broodwar and these nublet RTS games.



It's like the game speed and skill level requirement have lowered 500% to cater to the average casual noob

Hey Im slinging mad volume and fat stackin benjies I dont got time for spellin n shit - skinny peteLast edit: 14/03/2012 13:15

dnagardi   Hungary. Mar 14 2012 13:33. Posts 1776

i used to think that too that the skill level was lowered in todays games, but i changed my mind and i think im just extremely experienced and thats why these new games feel easy and dumb.
but at the progaming level its all the same, nothing changed


TheHuHu3   United States. Mar 14 2012 13:48. Posts 5544

LoL is for noobs.

TheHuHu4 coming soon :) 

whamm!   Albania. Mar 14 2012 14:42. Posts 11625

Broodwar and Counterstrike forever.

it required insane skill to play at a high level and even if you did suck ass you tried your hardest to be the best you could be. since warcraft 3 and halo everything was about homosexual graphics.


hording   Sweden. Mar 14 2012 14:59. Posts 474

How can you even mention CS together with broodwar? CS didn't even require 10% as much skill as BW.
Also good Q3 players are waay more impressive imo but guess it's a taste thingy, since CS is teamgame and all.


TalentedTom    Canada. Mar 14 2012 15:20. Posts 20070


  On March 14 2012 07:01 EvilSky wrote:
Korea, I am disappoint :[

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

YoMeR   United States. Mar 14 2012 15:28. Posts 12435


  On March 14 2012 12:14 Stim_Abuser wrote:
Makes me feel old.


When I see people playing these new games, I get that old man get off my lawn mode of, " Back in my day we played games that weren't catered to noobies like you. "

My brother in law & my nephew LOVE modern warfare series. Play it ALL the time. Whenever I go visit and they're playing all I can think of is ugh, this shit is horrible compared to CS. A fucking joystick? Drop my CS player with my mouse in this server and I'd fucking massacre all 30 of the players 1000-0.

Same with broodwar and these nublet RTS games.



It's like the game speed and skill level requirement have lowered 500% to cater to the average casual noob



was funny watching doomer be a professional pub stomper on COD ;D

DO IT ON CAL NOOB

eZ Life. 

YoMeR   United States. Mar 14 2012 15:29. Posts 12435

just wait till flash comes over to sc2...then we'll see what a real programer looks like. quad pronged attacks gonna be the standard ;(

eZ Life. 

YoMeR   United States. Mar 14 2012 15:29. Posts 12435

o and terran gonna get nerfed even harder since he'll basically break terran.

eZ Life. 

YoMeR   United States. Mar 14 2012 15:34. Posts 12435


  On March 14 2012 13:59 hording wrote:
How can you even mention CS together with broodwar? CS didn't even require 10% as much skill as BW.
Also good Q3 players are waay more impressive imo but guess it's a taste thingy, since CS is teamgame and all.



in terms of pure aim skill of course quake 3 was way fucking more impressive...so was unreal tournament.

but don't underestimate the extremely high skill cap (almost unlimited) in cs as well . and of course the tactical aspect of the game is far superior than the above 2 mentioned games. (remember heaton? comon you're swede)

eZ Life. 

Garfed   Malta. Mar 14 2012 15:37. Posts 4818

I have no idea how this game is so popular, graphics are disgusting and look like for a 12 year old, and it's impossible to know what's going on if you don't play the game (esports factor).


dnagardi   Hungary. Mar 14 2012 15:39. Posts 1776


  On March 14 2012 14:29 YoMeR wrote:
just wait till flash comes over to sc2...then we'll see what a real programer looks like. quad pronged attacks gonna be the standard ;(



yea just like boxer and nada showed us... oh wait.


traxamillion   United States. Mar 14 2012 15:40. Posts 10468

CS is up there with BW in terms of skill (there are like 5 TOP players big skillcurve even at the top) but they are just very different.


wc3 is an amazing game as well. way better than sc2


VanDerMeyde   Norway. Mar 14 2012 15:55. Posts 5108


  On March 14 2012 14:29 YoMeR wrote:
just wait till flash comes over to sc2...then we'll see what a real programer looks like. quad pronged attacks gonna be the standard ;(



Its hard going from winning 80 matches in a row to having 55% winrate in SC2 vs people you laughed at in brood war.

:D 

taco   Iceland. Mar 14 2012 15:57. Posts 1793


  On March 14 2012 14:37 Defrag wrote:
I have no idea how this game is so popular, graphics are disgusting and look like for a 12 year old, and it's impossible to know what's going on if you don't play the game (esports factor).



SC2 rapes BW in this aspect.

I have never even touched the SC games but I'm still interested in watching the high level SC2 streams with commentary; BW not even a bit.


Tensai176   Canada. Mar 14 2012 16:06. Posts 1018


  On March 14 2012 14:57 taco wrote:
Show nested quote +



SC2 rapes BW in this aspect.

I have never even touched the SC games but I'm still interested in watching the high level SC2 streams with commentary; BW not even a bit.

Wat.

This is the other way around. I have no idea what the hell is going on in an SC2 game.

BW its much easier to tell where the flow of the game is going, who's winning, who needs to come back etc.

Much friendlier


dogmeat   Czech Republic. Mar 14 2012 16:17. Posts 6374


  On March 14 2012 14:57 taco wrote:
Show nested quote +



SC2 rapes BW in this aspect.

I have never even touched the SC games but I'm still interested in watching the high level SC2 streams with commentary; BW not even a bit.
ban

ban baal 

NotSorry   United States. Mar 14 2012 16:28. Posts 2603

BW and Quake3 forever, everything since has been causal friendly trash.

We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. 

nosoul   Brasil. Mar 14 2012 16:54. Posts 902

called this a long time ago... LoL is the best moba game out there, only ppl i know who say `dota` or `dota2` are those who only played a few matchs at terrible elo and went back to Dota, coz they already know how that game works. so, why learn a new one?

hansen says: i was this close to ship 3 girls this week 

aCa_   . Mar 14 2012 17:11. Posts 470


  On March 14 2012 15:54 nosoul wrote:
called this a long time ago... LoL is the best moba game out there,



ban plz

 Last edit: 14/03/2012 17:15

EvilSky    Czech Republic. Mar 14 2012 17:19. Posts 8915


  On March 14 2012 14:57 taco wrote:
Show nested quote +



SC2 rapes BW in this aspect.

I have never even touched the SC games but I'm still interested in watching the high level SC2 streams with commentary; BW not even a bit.

You are completely missing the point of the game, you might just as well say that the graphics of chess suck... I pity you guys that you never played such an awesome game.


dnagardi   Hungary. Mar 14 2012 17:23. Posts 1776

also wanna mention for the record that Warcraft 3 is by far the best game ever made

haters gonna hate


hording   Sweden. Mar 14 2012 17:25. Posts 474


  but don't underestimate the extremely high skill cap (almost unlimited) in cs as well . and of course the tactical aspect of the game is far superior than the above 2 mentioned games. (remember heaton? comon you're swede)




I just don't buy the "extremely high skill cap" for CS but.. And yes I remember the CS history and that's like the point, swedes dominated the scene the entire time and we're lazy fucks compared to asians. CS-pros pracced a few hours a day and took whole weeks of vacation after tournaments, not even CLOSE to putting the amount of hours in as korean WC3/BW pros.
I mean, BW was a true esport and the gamers were truly proffessional aswell, truly putting in the effort to become the best, nothing like the CS-scene where most of the "pros" just pracced at the evenings after work/school and went out every weekend etc.


HaiVan   Bulgaria. Mar 14 2012 18:19. Posts 2083


  On March 14 2012 12:14 Stim_Abuser wrote:
Makes me feel old.


When I see people playing these new games, I get that old man get off my lawn mode of, " Back in my day we played games that weren't catered to noobies like you. "

My brother in law & my nephew LOVE modern warfare series. Play it ALL the time. Whenever I go visit and they're playing all I can think of is ugh, this shit is horrible compared to CS. A fucking joystick? Drop my CS player with my mouse in this server and I'd fucking massacre all 30 of the players 1000-0.

Same with broodwar and these nublet RTS games.



It's like the game speed and skill level requirement have lowered 500% to cater to the average casual noob




  On March 14 2012 13:42 whamm! wrote:
Broodwar and Counterstrike forever.

it required insane skill to play at a high level and even if you did suck ass you tried your hardest to be the best you could be. since warcraft 3 and halo everything was about homosexual graphics.



Pretty much this

plus this


  On March 14 2012 15:17 dogmeat wrote:
Show nested quote +

ban

Poker chobo.Last edit: 14/03/2012 18:23

Funktion   Australia. Mar 14 2012 19:38. Posts 1638

CS players were laughed at by QW players and probably will be forever. Anyone saying otherwise either wasn't around then or is doing some serious revisionist history.

CS was the LoL of it's time oooooo I said it.


Stim_Abuser   United States. Mar 14 2012 19:55. Posts 7499

Neg

Quake players were just feebly minded retards who thought faster pace meant superior.

CS was the perfect mix of strategy, team work, and aim/speed.

Quake was just who could shoot the fastest and most accurately with a little map strategy that a 5 year old could understand. It was just a FPS for kids who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.

CS players laughed at the clearly mentally challenged meth raging quake kids.

Hey Im slinging mad volume and fat stackin benjies I dont got time for spellin n shit - skinny peteLast edit: 14/03/2012 19:56

Stroggoz   New Zealand. Mar 14 2012 21:23. Posts 5291


  On March 14 2012 14:39 dnagardi wrote:
Show nested quote +



yea just like boxer and nada showed us... oh wait.


lol, the best player to switch from bw to sc2, at the time was MVP. this is his profile for bw http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/590_MVP He was not that impressive of a bw player with 40% winrate, and i think a peak rating of 2072.
when boxer/nada switched over they were pretty much retired, and in the bottom half of bw pro's in terms of elo ranking.
While flash has a peak rating of 2443. it's simple fact that if flash switched over he would destroy everyone.

neastea was also known for being laughably bad for a bw pro. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/29_NesTea

pretty much all the top sc2 players that played bw are playing sc2 because they couldn't get a good contract playing bw, because they sucked.

One of 3 non decent human beings on a site of 5 people with between 2-3 decent human beingsLast edit: 14/03/2012 21:33

Carreira   Peru. Mar 14 2012 21:31. Posts 154

So many butthurt old gamers in this thread, amazing.

Your a retarded taco eating bad fuckin poker player. lolololo 

julep   Australia. Mar 14 2012 22:49. Posts 1274

why is SC2 hated by BW players?

someone also mentioned the winrates being much lower in SC2 than BW, why is this the case?


Rapoza   Brasil. Mar 15 2012 00:09. Posts 1612

--- Nuked ---

Pouncer Style 4 the winLast edit: 15/03/2012 00:43

Elite00   United States. Mar 15 2012 00:22. Posts 683


  On March 14 2012 21:49 julep wrote:
why is SC2 hated by BW players?

someone also mentioned the winrates being much lower in SC2 than BW, why is this the case?



Because any scrub can luckbox a win against a top player. SC2 has more variance and doesn't allow better players to be as dominate as in BW.


Rapoza   Brasil. Mar 15 2012 00:42. Posts 1612

--- Nuked ---

Pouncer Style 4 the winLast edit: 15/03/2012 00:48

uiCk   Canada. Mar 15 2012 00:47. Posts 3521


  On March 14 2012 23:09 Rapoza wrote:
Show nested quote +

Spot on, lol, well said

not saying cs is better or worse BUT quake 1 / unreal tourament needs a looooooooooooooooooooooooooot more skill... not even close, only FPS CS beats is halo

cs haters gonna hate

Both games required crazy amount of skills to be top top. Though being top UT player, was insane. Just plain crazy skills.

I wish one of your guys had children if I could kick them in the fucking head or stomp on their testicles so you can feel my pain because thats the pain I have waking up everyday -- Mike Tyson 

qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 15 2012 01:28. Posts 14026


  On March 14 2012 20:31 Carreira wrote:
So many butthurt old gamers in this thread, amazing.



Because pretty much everyone here spent many years supporting the esport/gaming industry from buying products, playing games, attending events etc. and watching what these scenes are being turned into is like a kick in the balls.

Its like if you were to support a pokersite by playing on their software and paying rake etc then finding out that they stole your deposit and you cant cashout.


ERASA   Germany. Mar 15 2012 01:34. Posts 2440

I still watch bw games! DEAL WITH IT!


RaiNKhAN    United States. Mar 15 2012 01:37. Posts 4080


  On March 15 2012 00:34 ERASA wrote:
I still watch bw games! DEAL WITH IT!



+ Show Spoiler +

The biggest Rockets, Sixers, and Grizzlies fan you will ever meet! 

Rapoza   Brasil. Mar 15 2012 02:30. Posts 1612

--- Nuked ---

Pouncer Style 4 the win 

qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 15 2012 03:18. Posts 14026

CS required a totally different skill to dueling games.

Its not surprising that your favorite FPS is Battlefield.


djforever   Canada. Mar 15 2012 05:16. Posts 1510

fun game.


VanDerMeyde   Norway. Mar 15 2012 06:30. Posts 5108


  On March 14 2012 16:23 dnagardi wrote:
also wanna mention for the record that Warcraft 3 is by far the best game ever made

haters gonna hate



GG99Slayer (God): "Blizzard made Warcraft 3 too slow"

:D 

Funktion   Australia. Mar 15 2012 08:31. Posts 1638


  On March 15 2012 00:28 byrnesam wrote:
Show nested quote +



Because pretty much everyone here spent many years supporting the esport/gaming industry from buying products, playing games, attending events etc. and watching what these scenes are being turned into is like a kick in the balls.

Its like if you were to support a pokersite by playing on their software and paying rake etc then finding out that they stole your deposit and you cant cashout.

You played Ultima Online didn't you byrnesam (and for anyone else here who played)? I remember spending an hour taming for the 'power hour' (outside of this hour after a certain level you wouldn't gain if you trained) or whatever it was called just to get a 0.1% increase in skill. Sometimes you wouldn't get anything. Wandering the ice lands trying to tame snow leopards or whatever they had been renamed.

Back in my day...


qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 15 2012 09:20. Posts 14026


  On March 15 2012 07:31 Funktion wrote:
Show nested quote +


You played Ultima Online didn't you byrnesam (and for anyone else here who played)? I remember spending an hour taming for the 'power hour' (outside of this hour after a certain level you wouldn't gain if you trained) or whatever it was called just to get a 0.1% increase in skill. Sometimes you wouldn't get anything. Wandering the ice lands trying to tame snow leopards or whatever they had been renamed.

Back in my day...



Yeh i was a huge UO degen for quite a while. I never played on the official shard, I played on a small private free to play shard that was brutal for learning to play the game because you would get PKed non-stop. That non-stop element of danger made the game so much fun. Setting up macros to train skills and just doing that hour on end waiting for that glorious light blue *Your skill in Swordsmanship has increased by 0.1% and is now 88.5%*

UO had so much customization, it was so sick how many skill combos were available.

edit: I wouldnt say UO was all that skilled, but it was certainly more hardcore than MMOs today which are designed to keep you subscribing for eternity and making you agree to a fight before you get to PvP someone.

 Last edit: 15/03/2012 09:23

hording   Sweden. Mar 15 2012 11:06. Posts 474

UO was siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick good, probably then #1 game so far on earth. I only played on a freeshard aswell, I remember I my heart used to explode whenever some scary red guy popped up on the screen when I was traveling and shit, I had some serious passion for that game.

Same thing goes for the first months of Darkfall Online was supersick aswell, very very fun until people had high magic skill and the game died. Hopefully we will see a much better version of a similar game in the future!


Endo   United States. Mar 15 2012 12:10. Posts 953

Whoa, pretty cool. Obv for those people saying BW was so much harder than LoL- as someone who plays among all the pros (and is top .2% of the gaming community) I have to say that it definitely is mechanically easier to be good at LoL than SC. That being said, this game is easy to understand and hard to master; even now I'm going through a lot of minor adjustments understanding the flow of the game and how to play it out to a victory.


MysticJoey   Poland. Mar 15 2012 12:37. Posts 1430

even now lol, you are not a korean progamer in a team playing 12 hours/day, so ye comparing those is BAD


Funktion   Australia. Mar 15 2012 19:12. Posts 1638


  On March 15 2012 08:20 byrnesam wrote:
Yeh i was a huge UO degen for quite a while. I never played on the official shard, I played on a small private free to play shard that was brutal for learning to play the game because you would get PKed non-stop. That non-stop element of danger made the game so much fun. Setting up macros to train skills and just doing that hour on end waiting for that glorious light blue *Your skill in Swordsmanship has increased by 0.1% and is now 88.5%*

UO had so much customization, it was so sick how many skill combos were available.

edit: I wouldnt say UO was all that skilled, but it was certainly more hardcore than MMOs today which are designed to keep you subscribing for eternity and making you agree to a fight before you get to PvP someone.


Yeah not really skilled at all but when you mentioned how invested players used to be in games it reminded me of the good ol' UO days trying to squeeze out a GM in something 0.1% at a time. If you had a 0.3% day you pretty much hit the jackpot. I played Felucca for a while (on the official shard where you had the two worlds) but only when they bought out guild wars or factions or whatever it was called. My lag used to be horrible though, be running for 3 screens thinking you'd made it to safety only to jump back to laying dead on the ground, "ooooooo".


Dogan0s   United States. Mar 15 2012 22:22. Posts 902

LoL is good , light years ahead from dota/dota2/hon shit.
games in high elo are really really sharp and fun.
dont judge if you havent played it alot since imagine someone judgin bw like that back then.
you have no idea -_-
plus koreans are not stupid , they wouldnt pick a game without depth or enough competition.
game is amazing , balance is pretty good , and feedback is great so ..


whamm!   Albania. Mar 15 2012 22:46. Posts 11625

Before piracy, companies could just make great games and see if people liked it - the profits were that great so the gamble of creative freedom was absolutely worth it if the game was a hit. I can't see any new, groundbreaking genre or game coming out anytime soon.


qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 16 2012 01:48. Posts 14026


  On March 15 2012 21:22 Dogan0s wrote:
they wouldnt pick a game without depth or enough competition.



every game these days is easy and shallow.

remember when a lot of console games were near impossible? when you died 3 times and went back to the start of the fucking game?
or when you played a multiplayer game and got owned relentlessly until you worked out what everyone else was doing?

every game these days caters to the highest levels of casuals, because thats where they make all the loot. eSports created a boom of companies making "competitive" games and funding a few prizepools for events trying to create a buzz that ended in some giant anti-climax.

Its all about money these days. They cant make anything hard because people just up and quit as soon as they get killed 4 times in a row.


qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 16 2012 01:59. Posts 14026


  On March 15 2012 18:12 Funktion wrote:
Show nested quote +


Yeah not really skilled at all but when you mentioned how invested players used to be in games it reminded me of the good ol' UO days trying to squeeze out a GM in something 0.1% at a time. If you had a 0.3% day you pretty much hit the jackpot. I played Felucca for a while (on the official shard where you had the two worlds) but only when they bought out guild wars or factions or whatever it was called. My lag used to be horrible though, be running for 3 screens thinking you'd made it to safety only to jump back to laying dead on the ground, "ooooooo".


lol "oOOOoOo" that noise was so tilting.


qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 16 2012 01:59. Posts 14026


  On March 15 2012 10:06 hording wrote:
I remember I my heart used to explode whenever some scary red guy popped up on the screen when I was traveling and shit, I had some serious passion for that game.



being forced to PvP made the game so good. Full on adrenaline rush as you try to escape a PKer.

I remember getting PKed on one character, and instantly logging onto another character to go seek vengeance.

Guild Wars 2 looks really good.


hording   Sweden. Mar 16 2012 13:14. Posts 474

Don't know, I don't know if I can truly enjoy a MMO without sandbox-ful loot style. PVP will always be kinda meh and leveling etc not as fun as the skillsystem. But yeah GW2 will be better than any other alternative on the MMO market atm.


Raidern   Brasil. Mar 16 2012 13:29. Posts 4243


  On March 16 2012 00:59 byrnesam wrote:
Show nested quote +



lol "oOOOoOo" that noise was so tilting.




i watched the whole video looking for 'ooooo'

im a regular at nl5 

Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 01:31. Posts 953


  On March 15 2012 21:22 Dogan0s wrote:
LoL is good , light years ahead from dota/dota2/hon shit.
games in high elo are really really sharp and fun.
dont judge if you havent played it alot since imagine someone judgin bw like that back then.
you have no idea -_-
plus koreans are not stupid , they wouldnt pick a game without depth or enough competition.
game is amazing , balance is pretty good , and feedback is great so ..



Are you high elo? :O

I havent met many people who are on LiquidPoker


GiYoM   Korea (South). Mar 17 2012 01:54. Posts 455


  On March 14 2012 12:14 Stim_Abuser wrote:
Makes me feel old.


When I see people playing these new games, I get that old man get off my lawn mode of, " Back in my day we played games that weren't catered to noobies like you. "



1+


GiYoM   Korea (South). Mar 17 2012 02:00. Posts 455


  On March 15 2012 21:22 Dogan0s wrote:
LoL is good , light years ahead from dota/dota2/hon shit.
games in high elo are really really sharp and fun.
dont judge if you havent played it alot since imagine someone judgin bw like that back then.
you have no idea -_-
plus koreans are not stupid , they wouldnt pick a game without depth or enough competition.
game is amazing , balance is pretty good , and feedback is great so ..



LoL is more popular than Dota/Hon beacause it's free-2-play and, most importantly, they've translated it in Korean and done a really good job marketing their game.



Dogan0s   United States. Mar 17 2012 02:40. Posts 902

im at 1900 eu east
but you can watch tons of high elo games and some of the best players on own3d.tv

LoL is better than dota/hon and the free-2-play thing is just an illusion since sooner or later you pay for champs/skins.
they make tons of money nowdays...and ofc fact they translated in korean its in the "great feedback" part.
game has over 70 heros and its pretty balanced.action is fast and accurate, games last 20-30 mins (40 max)
i was hating aswell , playing dota for a long time , but when i gave it a chance (like 30 games) i discovered whats going on
not comparing with bw or anything , just saying nowdays is the most competitive game other than 1v1 games , and its easy to play aswell.
i think the game is here to stay for some years ..


TheHuHu3   United States. Mar 17 2012 04:29. Posts 5544

Infinite town portals, no creep denying opposing team, no gold loss on death. We have this mode in HoN and it's called Casual Mode. Easiest fucking thing in the world. LoL is for newbs. DEAL WITH IT AFK.

TheHuHu4 coming soon :) 

whamm!   Albania. Mar 17 2012 04:48. Posts 11625

they even got some ex korean pros to endorse it (yellow)


Etherone   Canada. Mar 17 2012 05:07. Posts 753


  On March 17 2012 01:40 Dogan0s wrote:
im at 1900 eu east
but you can watch tons of high elo games and some of the best players on own3d.tv

LoL is better than dota/hon and the free-2-play thing is just an illusion since sooner or later you pay for champs/skins.
they make tons of money nowdays...and ofc fact they translated in korean its in the "great feedback" part.
game has over 70 heros and its pretty balanced.action is fast and accurate, games last 20-30 mins (40 max)
i was hating aswell , playing dota for a long time , but when i gave it a chance (like 30 games) i discovered whats going on
not comparing with bw or anything , just saying nowdays is the most competitive game other than 1v1 games , and its easy to play aswell.
i think the game is here to stay for some years ..



you are being a huge hypocrite.
Here you come being defensive about LoL because other games have depth and you are tired of people dismissing your game just because it's slightly slower paced or F2P or whatever, and BOOM "light years ahead from dota/dota2/hon shit."
hon has insane skill depth, and it's not even fleshed out yet.
Warcraft 3 also had loads of depth, but it was slower paced than BW and some people prefer that.
LoL and Dota are both slower paced than HoN, and some people prefer that.
all of them have sick depth, but different pacing, communities, and mechanic dynamics.
General perception is that a faster paced game requires more skill due to shorter margins of error at progressively higher levels of play, which is why a lot of BW people play wc3 and feel like they are playing a watered down game. this is not necessarily true of course.

sc2 has higher competitiveness in terms of tournaments, events, leagues, prize money etc etc etc etc than bw ever did, but fuck me if you think bw is shitty or any less of a game because of it. that "argument" is completely baseless, and more a factor of both sc2 and LoL being easy to play ( your own words), and marketing, or ease of access etc.

have you even played hon?


RaiNKhAN    United States. Mar 17 2012 06:07. Posts 4080

Hon is more rewarding per win but the community is very brutal. LoL attracts the people who cantdealwithit.jpg

The biggest Rockets, Sixers, and Grizzlies fan you will ever meet! 

Rapoza   Brasil. Mar 17 2012 06:49. Posts 1612

--- Nuked ---

Pouncer Style 4 the win 

whamm!   Albania. Mar 17 2012 07:11. Posts 11625

it's a good static defense strat


Ket    United Kingdom. Mar 17 2012 08:58. Posts 8665


  On March 15 2012 21:22 Dogan0s wrote:
plus koreans are not stupid , they wouldnt pick a game without depth or enough competition.


lol have u been to a pc bang in seoul and seen what 99.9% of them play.. also that isnt any different to anywhere else in the world. the masses love dumb games

edit: and there's nothing wrong with that imo. if i play any pc games now i'll make sure they're pretty brainless and light. now that you know about poker why would u waste ur time on a deep competitve game where you can't win money?

 Last edit: 17/03/2012 09:00

cariadon   Estonia. Mar 17 2012 09:02. Posts 4019

THe games that have dominated hardcore have been games the majority can play. BW, CS, Quake series all have been very low requirements. I'd guess the same goes when comparing LoL to dota2 with hon being somewhere in the middle.


Dogan0s   United States. Mar 17 2012 12:02. Posts 902


  On March 17 2012 04:07 Etherone wrote:
Show nested quote +



you are being a huge hypocrite.
Here you come being defensive about LoL because other games have depth and you are tired of people dismissing your game just because it's slightly slower paced or F2P or whatever, and BOOM "light years ahead from dota/dota2/hon shit."
hon has insane skill depth, and it's not even fleshed out yet.
Warcraft 3 also had loads of depth, but it was slower paced than BW and some people prefer that.
LoL and Dota are both slower paced than HoN, and some people prefer that.
all of them have sick depth, but different pacing, communities, and mechanic dynamics.
General perception is that a faster paced game requires more skill due to shorter margins of error at progressively higher levels of play, which is why a lot of BW people play wc3 and feel like they are playing a watered down game. this is not necessarily true of course.

sc2 has higher competitiveness in terms of tournaments, events, leagues, prize money etc etc etc etc than bw ever did, but fuck me if you think bw is shitty or any less of a game because of it. that "argument" is completely baseless, and more a factor of both sc2 and LoL being easy to play ( your own words), and marketing, or ease of access etc.

have you even played hon?





dude im not flaming hon or dota/2 and im not defending LoL if you think im doing that.
i played like 50 games hon and tons of dota games and comparing to lol i think they suck.
yea ofc most games including lol nowdays have no depth comparing to bw or even wc3 but times have changed and ppl
love dumb/fast paced/easy to learn multiplayer games like ket said.so~~


TheHuHu3   United States. Mar 17 2012 12:08. Posts 5544

You probably hate HoN because you suck at it. LOL CYA.

TheHuHu4 coming soon :) 

Mariuslol   Norway. Mar 17 2012 12:44. Posts 4742


MIKE MORHAIM, PROLEAGUE MAYBE FOR SC2


Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 13:54. Posts 953


  On March 17 2012 01:40 Dogan0s wrote:
im at 1900 eu east
but you can watch tons of high elo games and some of the best players on own3d.tv

LoL is better than dota/hon and the free-2-play thing is just an illusion since sooner or later you pay for champs/skins.
they make tons of money nowdays...and ofc fact they translated in korean its in the "great feedback" part.
game has over 70 heros and its pretty balanced.action is fast and accurate, games last 20-30 mins (40 max)
i was hating aswell , playing dota for a long time , but when i gave it a chance (like 30 games) i discovered whats going on
not comparing with bw or anything , just saying nowdays is the most competitive game other than 1v1 games , and its easy to play aswell.
i think the game is here to stay for some years ..



I'm actually streamer too ;o I'm ~2000 on NA.

Wouldn't say it's lightyears ahead but it's definitely bigger than HoN. Different games really, focusing on different aspects (like HoN players like to point out, there isn't any creep denying or gold loss) but I feel this is actually more important in the actual balancing of the game. If you die once you're not completely out of your lane, and it allows a lot more matchups that wouldn't be available otherwise (i.e. Ranged champs would become MUCH stronger in lane as a result of creep denying).


  On March 17 2012 03:48 whamm! wrote:
they even got some ex korean pros to endorse it (yellow)



Yea and LoL has a huge tourney system set up behind it now. They're great at marketing, but you can't convince massive amounts of people to play a subpar game if there is a free alternative out there. LoL really IS a great game.


Souone   Brasil. Mar 17 2012 15:18. Posts 24


  On March 17 2012 12:54 Endo wrote:

If you die once you're not completely out of your lane, and it allows a lot more matchups that wouldn't be available otherwise (i.e. Ranged champs would become MUCH stronger in lane as a result of creep denying).




I don't get when LoL players say this, i've played both Dota and LoL and the "snowballing" is a lot worse on LoL, and by far, take for example this week Na'Vi vs GoSu high level competitive game, GoSu was 11-1 on the beggining of the game and had only a 1k gold advantage ending up losing in the end. I have seen LoL games where it was 4-2 and the casters proclaimed the game was over because the difference was too big.

And the matchup thing in my point of view is much more strict in LoL, I mean, how many melees can/are soloing mid these days ? How many AD carries are melee ? Do you seriously see a lot of different laning possibilities ? I certainly don't.

Quick edit: A proof of this is that sometimes you can see a whole lineup in dota and you can't really say what the lanes will be, since there are a lot of possibilities.

 Last edit: 17/03/2012 15:20

TheHuHu3   United States. Mar 17 2012 15:41. Posts 5544

Games that require a skill cap but don't punish you for making mistakes or dying isn't balance at all; it's catering to the newb and casual players.

I haven't played LoL but there is a mode in HoN (Casual Mode) that has almost the same game mechanics as LoL (but we don't have infinite town portals). It's so tremendously easy to win. Say you have a team of 1700 MMR (ELO in LoL's case) against an 1800+ MMR in normal match making. More often than not, the 1800 team will rape the 1700 team 8 times out of 10. That's because the 1800 team will usually deny better to prevent gold + exp gain for the 1700 team, and when the latter team's player die, they lose gold and time for doing so. In Casual Mode, the things that completely determine the outcome of the laning phase (creep denies and ganks / kills) don't even matter because there's no penalty. Even if you deny a creep, the team still gets full experience so there's no point in denying. If a hero dies, then oh well. Nothing changed. They can still come back and beat the 1800 team because the nuances that matter so much in Normal Mode don't mean shit in Casual Mode.

TheHuHu4 coming soon :) 

Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 15:56. Posts 953


  On March 17 2012 14:18 Souone wrote:
Show nested quote +



I don't get when LoL players say this, i've played both Dota and LoL and the "snowballing" is a lot worse on LoL, and by far, take for example this week Na'Vi vs GoSu high level competitive game, GoSu was 11-1 on the beggining of the game and had only a 1k gold advantage ending up losing in the end. I have seen LoL games where it was 4-2 and the casters proclaimed the game was over because the difference was too big.

And the matchup thing in my point of view is much more strict in LoL, I mean, how many melees can/are soloing mid these days ? How many AD carries are melee ? Do you seriously see a lot of different laning possibilities ? I certainly don't.

Quick edit: A proof of this is that sometimes you can see a whole lineup in dota and you can't really say what the lanes will be, since there are a lot of possibilities.


Hm. Let me try to address both of the posts in order. First, Souone's post. Snowballing is pretty much existent in any sort of game of these types; you take an advantage you have in early game, use it to push advantages (such as being stronger in teamfights, being higher level, etc) and gain an advantage in mid-game to set up your lategame. That's true of LoL, HoN, Dota 2, etc. In LoL, the laning phase is just one part of a MUCH bigger game. For example, If I were toplane and I gave up tower to try to force a 5v4 fight at dragon and take dragon, that decision is a very crucial part of how the game will play out. If I leave top, they take the tower and have free farm top (more xp and gold) but I can eke out a small gold advantage for the team overall if we manage to take dragon uncontested. In LoL, games are often "over" because all lanes are losing and they can't push any advantage (they have none!) to try to take the game back into their favor. However, this isn't always the case; recently a team has come out called Moscow 5 where they've not dropped a single game in the last 2 big tournies. In many of the games they've actually been behind by a significant margin but pulled beautiful plays to put themselves back into the game. Other times they abuse little mistakes the other team makes (even at a pro level!) and crush from then on.

Also, when you mention that there aren't many melee's solo'ing mid-- that's simply a matchup question. Does it make sense to put a melee champion against a high burst champion? You take too much free damage when you trade. However, that being said, I often run tryndamere or gangplank against weaker burst champions (and yes, melee against mid). One of the things you have to watch out for is it your team comp; when you run melee (usually physical damage) mid, you run the risk of not having enough magic damage and making it easy for the enemy team to build armor to counter your entire team. For that reason, AP mid is usually preferred.

 Last edit: 17/03/2012 16:12

Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 16:10. Posts 953


  On March 17 2012 14:41 TheHuHu3 wrote:
Games that require a skill cap but don't punish you for making mistakes or dying isn't balance at all; it's catering to the newb and casual players.

I haven't played LoL but there is a mode in HoN (Casual Mode) that has almost the same game mechanics as LoL (but we don't have infinite town portals). It's so tremendously easy to win. Say you have a team of 1700 MMR (ELO in LoL's case) against an 1800+ MMR in normal match making. More often than not, the 1800 team will rape the 1700 team 8 times out of 10. That's because the 1800 team will usually deny better to prevent gold + exp gain for the 1700 team, and when the latter team's player die, they lose gold and time for doing so. In Casual Mode, the things that completely determine the outcome of the laning phase (creep denies and ganks / kills) don't even matter because there's no penalty. Even if you deny a creep, the team still gets full experience so there's no point in denying. If a hero dies, then oh well. Nothing changed. They can still come back and beat the 1800 team because the nuances that matter so much in Normal Mode don't mean shit in Casual Mode.



A big part of the game in LoL is the overall understanding of the game. I'm currently ~2000 elo (which is in the top 0.1% of the players of the game) where I play competitively with all the pros you see on streams and broadcasted. Your default rank when you start playing ranked at level 30 is 1200. To give you an idea of how much of a skill level difference there is, I'm pulling some stats from season 1's elo's. It is a bell curve distribution. 1250 (Bronze) is top 25%, 1400 (Silver) is top 10%, 1520 (gold) is top 3%, 1900 (Platinum) is top 0.2%.

Now if I were to ever play against a 1700 player, I should win about 8/10 times. Laning mechanics, rune choices, itemization, teamfight decisions, control of objectives, control of creep waves, warding and counterwarding, setting up baits, and a lot more game understanding are what separates me from that elo. Sure, I can't deny creeps, But that doesnt mean if I set up a kill on him and snowball the lane, I can't zone him away from xp and creeps anyways. Killing creeps isn't as easy as you'd think. Often when you go for a creep, a top-tier player will layer on free damage (whether it be an auto attack and an ability, or otherwise) and when that damage adds up, you soon get zoned from your own creeps.

What I think you're overlooking is that LoL isn't just a simple "kill creeps, get items, win teamfights, win game" sort of game. There is suuuuch a more complex idea of how to win a game, what to do in a very short reactive period of time and that's things people often overlook.

Also, in regards to why denying isn't a feature in League: It gimps melee champions too much. It gives no incentive to play anything other than a ranged champion because especially in early levels where auto attacks do quite a significant % of damage of total health, you can do little tricks like auto attack the other champion and then go into brush to lose creep/minion aggro. It's easier to deny as ranged champions as well, and often forces melee champions out of lane. (This is actually still a trick people use to play against a lot of toplane melee champs in the game, btw. It would snowball infinitely harder if there WERE denying involved). This would, effectively, make most of the melee champions unplayable. To balance the game a bit and allow for more matchups, denying was not introduced as a mechanic to LoL. I'm not sure how minion aggro/melee heroes laning works in HoN, and perhaps they have a solution for it, but in LoL, not having denying actually opens up teh game to a lot more possibilities of interesting choices for doing certain champs.


Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 16:15. Posts 953

Oh, also want to point out that the skill difference is pretty immense; even without denying and lane mechanics like that, a 4 man team of 1900's can win against a 5 man team of 1500's 9 times out of 10.


Dogan0s   United States. Mar 17 2012 16:46. Posts 902

one of the top delevopers of LoL once stated they didnt include deny in the game
so players dont focus in laning and farming forever like in dota which leads in more early action.

endo whats ur name so i can watch some streams of yours ?

 Last edit: 17/03/2012 16:47

nosoul   Brasil. Mar 17 2012 16:49. Posts 902


  On March 17 2012 14:41 TheHuHu3 wrote:
Games that require a skill cap but don't punish you for making mistakes or dying isn't balance at all; it's catering to the newb and casual players.

I haven't played LoL but there is a mode in HoN (Casual Mode) that has almost the same game mechanics as LoL (but we don't have infinite town portals). It's so tremendously easy to win. Say you have a team of 1700 MMR (ELO in LoL's case) against an 1800+ MMR in normal match making. More often than not, the 1800 team will rape the 1700 team 8 times out of 10. That's because the 1800 team will usually deny better to prevent gold + exp gain for the 1700 team, and when the latter team's player die, they lose gold and time for doing so. In Casual Mode, the things that completely determine the outcome of the laning phase (creep denies and ganks / kills) don't even matter because there's no penalty. Even if you deny a creep, the team still gets full experience so there's no point in denying. If a hero dies, then oh well. Nothing changed. They can still come back and beat the 1800 team because the nuances that matter so much in Normal Mode don't mean shit in Casual Mode.




  I haven't played LoL



yea... just stop right there

hansen says: i was this close to ship 3 girls this week 

Carreira   Peru. Mar 17 2012 16:52. Posts 154

I would like to see a HoN player to actually address this points instead of so much "blah blah no deny creeps noob game lol".

Would actually be interesting.

Your a retarded taco eating bad fuckin poker player. lolololo 

Souone   Brasil. Mar 17 2012 17:02. Posts 24


  On March 17 2012 14:56 Endo wrote:
Show nested quote +



Hm. Let me try to address both of the posts in order. First, Souone's post. Snowballing is pretty much existent in any sort of game of these types; you take an advantage you have in early game, use it to push advantages (such as being stronger in teamfights, being higher level, etc) and gain an advantage in mid-game to set up your lategame. That's true of LoL, HoN, Dota 2, etc. In LoL, the laning phase is just one part of a MUCH bigger game. For example, If I were toplane and I gave up tower to try to force a 5v4 fight at dragon and take dragon, that decision is a very crucial part of how the game will play out. If I leave top, they take the tower and have free farm top (more xp and gold) but I can eke out a small gold advantage for the team overall if we manage to take dragon uncontested. In LoL, games are often "over" because all lanes are losing and they can't push any advantage (they have none!) to try to take the game back into their favor. However, this isn't always the case; recently a team has come out called Moscow 5 where they've not dropped a single game in the last 2 big tournies. In many of the games they've actually been behind by a significant margin but pulled beautiful plays to put themselves back into the game. Other times they abuse little mistakes the other team makes (even at a pro level!) and crush from then on.

Also, when you mention that there aren't many melee's solo'ing mid-- that's simply a matchup question. Does it make sense to put a melee champion against a high burst champion? You take too much free damage when you trade. However, that being said, I often run tryndamere or gangplank against weaker burst champions (and yes, melee against mid). One of the things you have to watch out for is it your team comp; when you run melee (usually physical damage) mid, you run the risk of not having enough magic damage and making it easy for the enemy team to build armor to counter your entire team. For that reason, AP mid is usually preferred.



The first part I meant as a reply to the "losing gold mechanic -> snowballing harder" where you said "If you die once you're not completely out of your lane" supposedly meaning that in HoN/Dota (I never really played HoN, I'm just assuming HoN = Dota/Dota2) it's worse, not really involving any decisions of giving dragon or anything, more accurate would be a case where you are solo top and die to their solo top (or solo top + jungler), my point was that in those situations, in LoL, you get a lot farther behind (even with the not losing gold mechanics) then in Dota or HoN, I think mainly because in LoL there are pretty much 4 carries, while in Dota nowadays there are games with literally 0 hard carries, so in LoL you are always feeding kills to a hero that can potentially win the game, or make the game really really hard, while in Dota/HoN most of the time it's not the case, since hard carries are mostly made to not really be good early game. Just picture an enemy Irelia 2-0ing your Shyvanna on top, and assuming the rest of the lanes are even, how bad is this ?

And I saw the M5 games, the 4-2 game I was referring to was in IEM Kiev, I'm just not sure which one though, I think it was TSM vs someone but I can't remember. I am aware there are a lot of other factors involved, not just the score, but the not losing gold mechanic doesn't really tell the whole story and is not a major factor in the big picture.

Regarding the second part, all I was saying is that the "deny" mechanic is not what really hurts melee heroes, if deny was introduced to LoL I think the same melees that can mid now would still mid, like Sion and Galio, sometimes denying is actually better for the melee since he can't get closer to the ranged hero to harass but if he is build to stay in the lane he can use his faster animation to deny creeps, since the ranged hero will naturally attack slower because of the projectile, plus the melee also usually has higher attack damage. My point is, denying wouldn't add or remove any matchups in LoL, I think in some cases it would actually favor the melee if he has a high lane sustain capability. But I still think LoL matchups are a lot narrower in possibilities, and deny is not a factor.

To sum it up, all i'm saying is that the denying and gold loss mechanics are not a big factor in screwing melee heroes in the lane and snowballing, that is just something I see that for some reason LoL players think would screw the game, I personally don't think it would (not saying they should change it or anything, just saying it's not that big of a deal that LoL players make it to be).


Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 17:03. Posts 953


  On March 17 2012 15:46 Dogan0s wrote:
one of the top delevopers of LoL once stated they didnt include deny in the game
so players dont focus in laning and farming forever like in dota which leads in more early action.

endo whats ur name so i can watch some streams of yours ?



MagnumXO is my main ;o

I'm currently actually doing a series of videos of how to beat each ELO level; what mistakes to take advantage of, and what people are doing wrong at each level.

My stream link is www.own3d.tv/MagnumXo

I'm on spring break (out partying!) so I won't be playing until I get back ;D

 Last edit: 17/03/2012 17:11

TheHuHu3   United States. Mar 17 2012 17:07. Posts 5544


  On March 17 2012 15:49 nosoul wrote:
Show nested quote +




  I haven't played LoL



yea... just stop right there


See, your dismissive attitude holds no water because what do you say to the people that HAVE played LoL and agree with me? Oh yeah, you're an idiot.

TheHuHu4 coming soon :) 

Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 17:09. Posts 953


  On March 17 2012 16:02 Souone wrote:
Show nested quote +



The first part I meant as a reply to the "losing gold mechanic -> snowballing harder" where you said "If you die once you're not completely out of your lane" supposedly meaning that in HoN/Dota (I never really played HoN, I'm just assuming HoN = Dota/Dota2) it's worse, not really involving any decisions of giving dragon or anything, more accurate would be a case where you are solo top and die to their solo top (or solo top + jungler), my point was that in those situations, in LoL, you get a lot farther behind (even with the not losing gold mechanics) then in Dota or HoN, I think mainly because in LoL there are pretty much 4 carries, while in Dota nowadays there are games with literally 0 hard carries, so in LoL you are always feeding kills to a hero that can potentially win the game, or make the game really really hard, while in Dota/HoN most of the time it's not the case, since hard carries are mostly made to not really be good early game. Just picture an enemy Irelia 2-0ing your Shyvanna on top, and assuming the rest of the lanes are even, how bad is this ?

And I saw the M5 games, the 4-2 game I was referring to was in IEM Kiev, I'm just not sure which one though, I think it was TSM vs someone but I can't remember. I am aware there are a lot of other factors involved, not just the score, but the not losing gold mechanic doesn't really tell the whole story and is not a major factor in the big picture.

Regarding the second part, all I was saying is that the "deny" mechanic is not what really hurts melee heroes, if deny was introduced to LoL I think the same melees that can mid now would still mid, like Sion and Galio, sometimes denying is actually better for the melee since he can't get closer to the ranged hero to harass but if he is build to stay in the lane he can use his faster animation to deny creeps, since the ranged hero will naturally attack slower because of the projectile, plus the melee also usually has higher attack damage. My point is, denying wouldn't add or remove any matchups in LoL, I think in some cases it would actually favor the melee if he has a high lane sustain capability. But I still think LoL matchups are a lot narrower in possibilities, and deny is not a factor.

To sum it up, all i'm saying is that the denying and gold loss mechanics are not a big factor in screwing melee heroes in the lane and snowballing, that is just something I see that for some reason LoL players think would screw the game, I personally don't think it would (not saying they should change it or anything, just saying it's not that big of a deal that LoL players make it to be).



When I played DOTA (Not DOTA 2) I remember how 1 champion could 1v5 others by snowballing. Is this no longer the case? Right now in LoL there is no instance where a champion could 1v5 under any circumstance (assuming teams weren't trying to lose on purpose).

Regarding denying tho-- a big part of farming is being able to keep your lane at a certain place due to managing creeps in a certain way and being able to farm under tower. If you could be denied that farm under tower as well (for example, imagine a high range champion ...dwarven sniper(Dota)/Caitlyn(Lol)) being able to attack a melee who is coming up to attack creeps under tower, and then denying htem that creep as well...well there is no way they'd be able to survive the lane being gold starved and xp starved. I'd say that game turns into a 5v4 since the other toplaner would be gimped so much.

If what I'm saying is a bit confusing, I'll try to make a short 20-30 second youtube vid illustrating how ranged champs against melee is already strong, and how denying would completely make that lane unplayable as melee.

You're right though that Sion and Galio can still farm as melee, but that's because they have certain spells (as mid or top) that can clear waves of minions in 1 burst. Not all melee champions have that though, and they'd see much less play if denying were introduced.


TheHuHu3   United States. Mar 17 2012 17:13. Posts 5544


  On March 17 2012 15:10 Endo wrote:
Show nested quote +



A big part of the game in LoL is the overall understanding of the game. I'm currently ~2000 elo (which is in the top 0.1% of the players of the game) where I play competitively with all the pros you see on streams and broadcasted. Your default rank when you start playing ranked at level 30 is 1200. To give you an idea of how much of a skill level difference there is, I'm pulling some stats from season 1's elo's. It is a bell curve distribution. 1250 (Bronze) is top 25%, 1400 (Silver) is top 10%, 1520 (gold) is top 3%, 1900 (Platinum) is top 0.2%.

Now if I were to ever play against a 1700 player, I should win about 8/10 times. Laning mechanics, rune choices, itemization, teamfight decisions, control of objectives, control of creep waves, warding and counterwarding, setting up baits, and a lot more game understanding are what separates me from that elo. Sure, I can't deny creeps, But that doesnt mean if I set up a kill on him and snowball the lane, I can't zone him away from xp and creeps anyways. Killing creeps isn't as easy as you'd think. Often when you go for a creep, a top-tier player will layer on free damage (whether it be an auto attack and an ability, or otherwise) and when that damage adds up, you soon get zoned from your own creeps.

What I think you're overlooking is that LoL isn't just a simple "kill creeps, get items, win teamfights, win game" sort of game. There is suuuuch a more complex idea of how to win a game, what to do in a very short reactive period of time and that's things people often overlook.

Also, in regards to why denying isn't a feature in League: It gimps melee champions too much. It gives no incentive to play anything other than a ranged champion because especially in early levels where auto attacks do quite a significant % of damage of total health, you can do little tricks like auto attack the other champion and then go into brush to lose creep/minion aggro. It's easier to deny as ranged champions as well, and often forces melee champions out of lane. (This is actually still a trick people use to play against a lot of toplane melee champs in the game, btw. It would snowball infinitely harder if there WERE denying involved). This would, effectively, make most of the melee champions unplayable. To balance the game a bit and allow for more matchups, denying was not introduced as a mechanic to LoL. I'm not sure how minion aggro/melee heroes laning works in HoN, and perhaps they have a solution for it, but in LoL, not having denying actually opens up teh game to a lot more possibilities of interesting choices for doing certain champs.


The laning phase you describe in LoL is the same in HoN. When a melee hero goes for a creep kill or deny, usually the ranged support of the opposing team will smack him / cast a spell on him to punish him for doing so. But HoN has found a sort of balance in this because the current meta game is melee strength / tank heroes that can withstand the harass and get their creep kills / denies. USUALLY a melee hero can out creep a ranged just because there's no projectile traveling time for auto attacks, like range heroes have. Don't know how it is in LoL, but range heroes in HoN have differing attack animations / auto-attack cast time / traveling time / actual range. How are the range heroes in LoL?

TheHuHu4 coming soon :) 

Souone   Brasil. Mar 17 2012 17:17. Posts 24


  On March 17 2012 15:46 Dogan0s wrote:
one of the top delevopers of LoL once stated they didnt include deny in the game
so players dont focus in laning and farming forever like in dota which leads in more early action.

endo whats ur name so i can watch some streams of yours ?



Current Dota 2 metagame has pretty much 0 farming, just watch Na'Vi playing they are currently the best team and they focus on ending the game early with massive pushing/ganking line ups, sometimes running no hard carry heroes.

I don't know what's the big deal with denying really, doesn't change all that much. I guess LoL developers freaked out because at some point Dota metagame was really focused on farming, mainly because of the Chinese scene, but that had nothing to do with denying.


Souone   Brasil. Mar 17 2012 17:58. Posts 24


  On March 17 2012 16:09 Endo wrote:
When I played DOTA (Not DOTA 2) I remember how 1 champion could 1v5 others by snowballing. Is this no longer the case? Right now in LoL there is no instance where a champion could 1v5 under any circumstance (assuming teams weren't trying to lose on purpose).

Regarding denying tho-- a big part of farming is being able to keep your lane at a certain place due to managing creeps in a certain way and being able to farm under tower. If you could be denied that farm under tower as well (for example, imagine a high range champion ...dwarven sniper(Dota)/Caitlyn(Lol)) being able to attack a melee who is coming up to attack creeps under tower, and then denying htem that creep as well...well there is no way they'd be able to survive the lane being gold starved and xp starved. I'd say that game turns into a 5v4 since the other toplaner would be gimped so much.

If what I'm saying is a bit confusing, I'll try to make a short 20-30 second youtube vid illustrating how ranged champs against melee is already strong, and how denying would completely make that lane unplayable as melee.

You're right though that Sion and Galio can still farm as melee, but that's because they have certain spells (as mid or top) that can clear waves of minions in 1 burst. Not all melee champions have that though, and they'd see much less play if denying were introduced.



I think I understand your point regarding denying, I just don't think it would really change anything for melee champs that can already stand against ranged ones well, sure it would be worse if you wanted to play something like Fizz, Fizz would probably really get f***ed by a ranged champ mid if denying was available, but I don't think champs like Sion or Galio would. Meaning it would probably widen the gap between "bad" soloing melees, but wouldn't really change much for the "good" ones, might even improve sometimes.

In my personal opinion, and my main reason for the replies, is that both LoL and Dota/HoN players blow the denying thing out of proportion (and other things), LoL is fine without it and so is Dota/HoN with it. I think both games have their merits and people just try to pick little things to bash the other game and it's just really silly and most of the time doesn't really matter all that much.

And 1v5 in Dota is probably possible specially in pubs where people are horrible, but in competitive games I don't see how. The big difference in Dota and LoL on this matter is that while LoL you have lineups with pretty much 4 carry/semi-carry heroes (Jungler, solo top, AD an AP carry, all those can potentially lead your team to victory) in Dota you have like 1 hard carry + 1 semi-carry or 2/3 semi-carries or no carry at all + gankers/supports, because the carry hero is usually bad early game, really bad, and pretty much as a rule, the harder carry he is the worst he is early game, some heroes like Spectre can 1v5 the enemy team if he gets really fed, but he is just so bad early game that this is very unlikely, because he just wont get big enough. And in the current metagame, where pushing is the law, you hardly see these massive carries, pretty much only Anti-mage because he is really annoying and kinda immortal, but even he is fading out.


Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 18:07. Posts 953


  On March 17 2012 16:13 TheHuHu3 wrote:
Show nested quote +



The laning phase you describe in LoL is the same in HoN. When a melee hero goes for a creep kill or deny, usually the ranged support of the opposing team will smack him / cast a spell on him to punish him for doing so. But HoN has found a sort of balance in this because the current meta game is melee strength / tank heroes that can withstand the harass and get their creep kills / denies. USUALLY a melee hero can out creep a ranged just because there's no projectile traveling time for auto attacks, like range heroes have. Don't know how it is in LoL, but range heroes in HoN have differing attack animations / auto-attack cast time / traveling time / actual range. How are the range heroes in LoL?



Yea the projectile speeds for AD champions differ. Now do auto attacks not do that much damage at early stages in a game? At level 1, assuming no runes and masteries, a champion has around 450-550 health. Auto attacks without runes or masteries do around 50-60 damage. Assuming runes and masteries, using abilities and auto attacks, a champ can die in about 5-6 auto attacks (assuming abilities are also used). How do melee/tank champions 'withstand' that, so to speak? Is the leveling extremely quick, so that they become tanky really fast, or do minions aggro do too much damage so champions are deterred from attacking other champions?

It is pretty rare for a melee champ to beat a ranged champ in laning phase unless that melee champ has a huge burst and gap closing ability


Endo   United States. Mar 17 2012 18:11. Posts 953


  On March 17 2012 16:58 Souone wrote:
Show nested quote +



I think I understand your point regarding denying, I just don't think it would really change anything for melee champs that can already stand against ranged ones well, sure it would be worse if you wanted to play something like Fizz, Fizz would probably really get f***ed by a ranged champ mid if denying was available, but I don't think champs like Sion or Galio would. Meaning it would probably widen the gap between "bad" soloing melees, but wouldn't really change much for the "good" ones, might even improve sometimes.

In my personal opinion, and my main reason for the replies, is that both LoL and Dota/HoN players blow the denying thing out of proportion (and other things), LoL is fine without it and so is Dota/HoN with it. I think both games have their merits and people just try to pick little things to bash the other game and it's just really silly and most of the time doesn't really matter all that much.

And 1v5 in Dota is probably possible specially in pubs where people are horrible, but in competitive games I don't see how. The big difference in Dota and LoL on this matter is that while LoL you have lineups with pretty much 4 carry/semi-carry heroes (Jungler, solo top, AD an AP carry, all those can potentially lead your team to victory) in Dota you have like 1 hard carry + 1 semi-carry or 2/3 semi-carries or no carry at all + gankers/supports, because the carry hero is usually bad early game, really bad, and pretty much as a rule, the harder carry he is the worst he is early game, some heroes like Spectre can 1v5 the enemy team if he gets really fed, but he is just so bad early game that this is very unlikely, because he just wont get big enough. And in the current metagame, where pushing is the law, you hardly see these massive carries, pretty much only Anti-mage because he is really annoying and kinda immortal, but even he is fading out.


That rule is also pretty much correct in LoL, although instead of a dedicated "hard carry", the mantra is if a champion gets put really really ahead, he shoudl be able to buy items and destroy teams. A ranged ad and a burst or assassin champion usually are necessary to win high level games because the burst champion can take down the other team's ranged ad in late game and the ranged ad is the only person who can build pure damage and with good positioning, survive.

Do Dota 2 and HoN have anything similar to summoner spells? I think that's a very clever thing introduced to the game since Dota since it allows for really creative gameplay.


Souone   Brasil. Mar 17 2012 18:27. Posts 24


  On March 17 2012 17:11 Endo wrote:

That rule is also pretty much correct in LoL, although instead of a dedicated "hard carry", the mantra is if a champion gets put really really ahead, he shoudl be able to buy items and destroy teams. A ranged ad and a burst or assassin champion usually are necessary to win high level games because the burst champion can take down the other team's ranged ad in late game and the ranged ad is the only person who can build pure damage and with good positioning, survive.

Do Dota 2 and HoN have anything similar to summoner spells? I think that's a very clever thing introduced to the game since Dota since it allows for really creative gameplay.



No summoner spells, but I think Dota/HoN offers a lot of customization via items, there are pretty much items for everything, blinking, magical immunity, physical immunity, nuking, invisibility, slowing, stunning, disarming, creating copies, burning mana, silencing and so on.


TheHuHu3   United States. Mar 17 2012 19:07. Posts 5544


  On March 17 2012 17:07 Endo wrote:
Show nested quote +



Yea the projectile speeds for AD champions differ. Now do auto attacks not do that much damage at early stages in a game? At level 1, assuming no runes and masteries, a champion has around 450-550 health. Auto attacks without runes or masteries do around 50-60 damage. Assuming runes and masteries, using abilities and auto attacks, a champ can die in about 5-6 auto attacks (assuming abilities are also used). How do melee/tank champions 'withstand' that, so to speak? Is the leveling extremely quick, so that they become tanky really fast, or do minions aggro do too much damage so champions are deterred from attacking other champions?

It is pretty rare for a melee champ to beat a ranged champ in laning phase unless that melee champ has a huge burst and gap closing ability



If you're talking 1v1 melee vs. ranged at the mid lane it's probably actually pretty even. But in a 2v2 laning phase, melee heroes will always get a Stout Shield that blocks 20 damage from ranged auto attacks, and 40 from melee auto attacks.

The thing is, every single melee agility carry hero has a way of closing the gap between him and a hero very quickly and effectively whilst doing damage. Almost all strength melee heroes have a slow or stun or rush type ability on them that makes it balanced for those 1v1 battles against ranged. Off the top of my head I can't think of any melee that can't, for the most part, fight toe-to-toe with a ranged hero. I think S2 was aware of how ranged "naturally" has an edge in battles so they gave every melee hero at least a fighting chance vs. them and not get kited for eternity.

I don't know what runes and masteries are for heroes in LoL, but every hero in HoN starts at level 1 with 600 gold no matter what.

TheHuHu4 coming soon :) 

qwerty67890   New Zealand. Mar 18 2012 04:15. Posts 14026

this thread went from a cool videogame esport nostalgia thread to a bunch of people arguing about which shitty casual game is less casual than the other.


Endo   United States. Mar 18 2012 13:01. Posts 953


  On March 18 2012 03:15 byrnesam wrote:
this thread went from a cool videogame esport nostalgia thread to a bunch of people arguing about which shitty casual game is less casual than the other.



ok


YoMeR   United States. Mar 18 2012 13:54. Posts 12435


  On March 15 2012 01:30 Rapoza wrote:
Obv top CS players got amazin skill/reflexes like any other top players do(LoL included) but even at top CS games its all about "camp iN shoot"(CS)

While Unreal Tourament fights = Matrix and worse players hardly can kill you 1 single time, most CS maps are too short, fights always happens the same way at the same spots, over and over again. Its a lot more about timing and who do less mistakes over who got more skills, even noobs can kill you when u do a mistake(like being hit by a flash granade, or while disarming a bomb)

I still like CS over Unreal, my favorite FPS is Battlefield but saying CS need "insane" skills is just... lol, my guess is OP only played CS his entire life, its like saying Age of Empires needs "insane" skills that Bw pros do






have you ever played cs at a high level? the reason why higher level match games in cs is a bit more passive at times is cuz everyone is so fucking good you make one misstep and you get an AK one shot to the face...

any competitive player goes into a pub game and they consistently get banned for "hacking"... The skill cap in cs is amazingly high but you don't seem to know this at all.

eZ Life. 

 



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