http://www.liquidpoker.net/


LP international Poland latinoamerica Iceland    Contact            Users: 157 Active, 27 Logged in - Time: 23:53
Poker News










LP Pokerstars Avatars:



Help! Struggling in 3bet pots vs badaggro fish

New to LiquidPoker? Register here for free!
Forum Index > Low Stakes Poker
hording   Sweden. Mar 01 2012 08:43. Posts 467

Hey, just played a session with this really bad player one one of the tables. I had the "godseat" sitting to his left and kept isolating him with a wide depolarized range. He had 60/30 and was folding 10% to 3bets, calling OOP with 57o and 7T etc just random-clicking buttons. I have a LAG reg to my left so can't flat as much but my isolations were successful most of the times, preflop worked well.

Vs passive fish I usually "3bet cbet" them until they play back but this guy wasn't planning to fold many flops at all, folding like 30% to cbets, calling with 10high etc frequently. Problem is, I won't hit the flop very often, so I keep donating money to him because he potbets the turn/river alot and I'm not eager to call down with K high on a 569J board or whatever.

Here are some examples of my bad play (I feel this is a very big leak of mine):

http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/949239
http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/949240
http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/949242

This is swedish currency btw so it's NL30-ish.

Showdown hands:
http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/949237
http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/949236

So as you can see he's playing with suuuch a wide range but so aggro.. Do I have to tighten up against him so I stop folding post? Isolating him a ton though feels so +EV, maybe I must start to checkcall him down with KJ-type of hands? Double barrel more often? I played with him for 100mins and lost 300bbs on that tables so I'm obviously really bad. Thoughts?


bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Mar 01 2012 10:58. Posts 7795

how random are his pot bets? is he going to be accidentally value-towning you with bottom pair, or is there at least some discernable line between his value-bets and bluffs (i.e. he's obviously going to have a wider value range, but to what extent?)

hand 1 (A8hh) you can probably think about calling river if his aggression is far enough out of line, lots of draws missed and turn/river are pretty massive bricks. but it depends on if you think he's potting something like 54o, 76o, etc. or if his range is at least "polarized" to like, 9x+ or air.

hand 2 (A7o) it's obviously fine to 3-bet a wide value range vs this guy IP but i think A7o is pushing it.

hand 3 (AQcc) i think is fine in a vacuum vs this guy, although i would definitely take note of the fact that he only bet halfpot with 3rd pair instead of potting it on turn.

hand 4 (TT) i would bet turn and bet that river again if checked to, even though you saved more money this time i'm assuming a player like this is going to be pretty spastic BvB. i'd also 3-bet a little bigger pre (nothing wrong with your size in general, just that you can likely get more value from this guy going bigger).

hand 5 (98cc) kind of depends on the other guy in the hand obv. but it seems unlikely c-c there can be good. i probably just lead pot or close to pot all 3 streets. if CO is any kind of semi-reg he's never going to c-bet this board with air when the whale is in there, and probably won't stack off with overpairs if he c-bets->fish calls->you c/r. but when you lead it puts him in a tricky position since you could also be leading a fair amount of marginal-ish hands to isolate the fish.

fwiw i looked at the hands in order, so i commented on hand 1 without seeing the rest, etc. but it does seem like he has some betsizing tells.

Truck-Crash LifeLast edit: 01/03/2012 11:24

hording   Sweden. Mar 01 2012 12:26. Posts 467

Thanks for the reply!

hand5: Think I'm planning to check-call flop/turn and ship river with valuehands like this (because he always bets a ton when I "give up" ). Reason I lead turn is because the other guy calls the flop so would hate it if it was multiway on the river.
I think my betsize on the turn and river sucks though..

Was not paying that much attention to his betsizes in general, felt like it was mostly potsized but also overbets aswell.

How do you like isolating and playing fit and fold in general though? if we assume he just randombets 80%-150% pot.

 Last edit: 01/03/2012 12:27

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Mar 01 2012 13:42. Posts 7795


  On March 01 2012 12:26 hording wrote:
Thanks for the reply!

hand5: Think I'm planning to check-call flop/turn and ship river with valuehands like this (because he always bets a ton when I "give up" ). Reason I lead turn is because the other guy calls the flop so would hate it if it was multiway on the river.
I think my betsize on the turn and river sucks though..

Was not paying that much attention to his betsizes in general, felt like it was mostly potsized but also overbets aswell.

How do you like isolating and playing fit and fold in general though? if we assume he just randombets 80%-150% pot.



yeah i still don't think c-c flop hand 5 is good, agreed betsize on turn/river was too small. if you really think he gets to river and pots it with a super-wide range i would lead flop/turn close to pot and check-call "bad" rivers and check-shove blank ones.

the rationale behind your plan (c-c flop and turn because he always bets a ton when you give up) sort of implies that you think he's going to fold too much when you 2-barrel. there's so many hands fish are continuing with on that board that i kind of doubt that's the case, but if he's giving up turns or rivers whenever he calls flop with crap then obviously you can just try monstering him. i think it's much more likely you're overestimating how often he folds turn/river though.

i also think it's pretty unlikely that he's truly random-betting 80-150% pot but of course i can't know without playing with him. but for ex. the hand where he bet halfpot with 3rd pair on turn and checked river makes me more likely to call river on the first hand where you have A8hh because it's less likely he's betting that size with like K5 or something.

Truck-Crash Life 

Critterer   United Kingdom. Mar 01 2012 18:03. Posts 5335

hard to beat a seriously loose player unless u actually hit anything. no point bluffing if hes calling with bottom pair/high card. just make sure you get max value when u do hit. which is exactly what you didnt do in hand 5.

raise flop, hammer turn and hammer river, big bets not flat lead for half pot twice.

LudaHid: dam.ned dam.ned dam.ned. LudaHid: dam.ned northwooden as..hole 

TalentedTom    Canada. Mar 02 2012 18:34. Posts 19695

start by c-betting

a lot of people think because they ahve A high they ahve showdown value - this is a dillusional way of thinking - Showdown value refers to two things : Getting to showdown and WINNING at showdown

its near impossible to check down unimproved A8 .. turn it into a bluff and go from there

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

hording   Sweden. Mar 03 2012 06:39. Posts 467


  On March 02 2012 18:34 TalentedTom wrote:
start by c-betting

a lot of people think because they ahve A high they ahve showdown value - this is a dillusional way of thinking - Showdown value refers to two things : Getting to showdown and WINNING at showdown

its near impossible to check down unimproved A8 .. turn it into a bluff and go from there



Is it good to be C-betting as a bluff (collection of dead money or whatever) when he's never going to fold though? First hundred hands or whatever I played "standard" and just isolated+cbet almost everything but I was just losing to much doing that cus I will give up turn and he will bet big on the turn or river.
I was kinda looking for a way to almost never bluff him but still isolate him wide, ehm yea I dunno


bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Mar 03 2012 07:06. Posts 7795

hermmm i just realized i thought villain bet turn in hand 3 instead of hero (which is kind of obvious from reading my comments)

Truck-Crash Life 

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Mar 03 2012 07:11. Posts 7795


  On March 02 2012 18:34 TalentedTom wrote:
its near impossible to check down unimproved A8 .. turn it into a bluff and go from there



wouldn't it be more of a value bet against this villain just based on ranges? (60/30, folds to 10% of 3bets, calls 70% of cbets including stuff like T high according to OP)...given description i can't imagine villain ever folds any better hand?

Truck-Crash Life 

TalentedTom    Canada. Mar 04 2012 00:41. Posts 19695

not everything in poker has to be classified as a value bet or bluff - its an aggresion bet. Often in poker you just bet because the first person to bet wins the pot

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

TalentedTom    Canada. Mar 04 2012 00:43. Posts 19695

its like c-betting 45s on AQ5r OOP, we could have the best hand, we could also fold out a hand like 88, but for the most part we are betting because check/evaling really blows and in NL aggresion is good

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us and as we let our own lights shine we unconsciously give other people permision to do the same 

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Mar 04 2012 04:52. Posts 7795

i know what you're saying, but if op's description is accurate villain is calling the 597 flop w/AT every time and probably even KQ, KJ, QJ, etc.

i agree with what you're saying in general but i'm having trouble seeing its application for this particular hand. for ex. this villain obviously isn't folding 88 on an AQ5r flop, he's probably not even folding 2h2d on a AsQs5s flop.

Truck-Crash Life 

Venrae   United States. Mar 06 2012 22:24. Posts 1528

If villain never folds to cbets and rarely or never donks turn shouldn't we be two barreling most boards? From what I saw in the hh's he likes to be aggressive vs any sign of weakness and slowplay monsters, so if he's c/c'ing all flops and checking turn he has a ton of garbage that he isn't going to be turning into bluffs...

Or is this over correcting and putting us in shitty spots?

Learn to appreciate the value of the dollar. The rest is easy. (Hurricane @ TL) 

 




Copyright © 2014. LiquidPoker.net All Rights Reserved
Contact Advertise Sitemap DonkeyTest