$10/$20 with a set on dry board.

$10/20 game during LAPC, my table is not so great with a lot of pretty nitty regs. There is a lot of other weird side shit that happened during the course of this hand that would be too long to explain exactly, so we'll just skip all the rando live reads that I have for w/e reasons and get straight to the hand. The basics: I definitely have the most active image at the table, this other reg at the table is talking to me like we are at "war" because of how often I've raised him, but in all honesty it's hard to war with someone who's folding every hand. He's definitely helping my image. I'm stuck a lot, and most of the table knows it, but Villan is new and prolly has no clue as to how much I'm stuck.

The main Villan in the hand just sat down two orbits before. He's Indian guy in his late 20's early 30s, wearing headphones and is reading something on his iPad. Gives off the impression that he is prolly a pro. He has yet to play a hand in the previous two orbits. The button is an old man tight fish who is slowly bleeding money in spots really passively.

Stacks:
Button ($830)
Villan ($3600)
I cover both

Preflop: I raise to $80 UTG+1 w , young kid next to me calls. Button calls. Villan is in the BB, he calls.

Flop: (Pot: $330)
Villan checks, I bet $220. Young kid to my left folds, Button calls. Villan tanks for about 10 seconds then announces a raise to $720. Button looks like he's set on putting his remaining stack in. I call. Button shoves for the $30 more. Villan tanks for a minute, then puts in the $30. I quickly call the $30.

Turn: (Pot: $2580)
Villan tanks for a minute, then shoves all-in for ~$2700. Thoughts?

Fold.

I'm curious what the weird side shit is after reading the hand

you called and villain had 9T wp.

well we can't fold now....

Bottom set ftw

"Villan tanks for a minute, then puts in the $30"
ಠ_ಠ

looks like you're flipping against his range right? The problem here is that he plays like 10 hands the same way 5 of which you are beating and 5 of which you are not.

So clear call I think.

Thoughts on what he jams here?

On February 12 2012 05:41 JonnyCosMo wrote: Button shoves for the $30 more. Villan tanks for a minute, then puts in the $30.

thanks for one whole minute to call extra $30? sickest slowroll ever

On February 12 2012 14:45 JonnyCosMo wrote: Thoughts on what he jams here?

Hands you lose to: 1010,99,QQ,78

(j8, kj) maybe in his range

Hands you beat: jj, j10, qj, 109, q10,

(77,88, 98,j9) maybe in his range

I think he does not shove with j8, kj and I think it is entirely plausible for him to have 77, 88, 98, and j8 though they may not be.

So I think it is a call given no reads. Agree?

well actually does he flat qq pre? and does he play j8?

His check raise on the flop looks an awful lot like a set or two pair though.

I think he shows up with 1010, 99 and 109 the most, but I still agree with above as his likely range.

why would he shove 77/88/J9/QJ/JT/JJ/98 on an empty side pot wtf?

On February 12 2012 20:28 player999 wrote: why would he shove 77/88/J9/QJ/JT/JJ/98 on an empty side pot wtf?

You are way better than me. Thus I yield to your opinion.

Does this mean he shoves Q10 and 109? Or did you just forget to add those in?

My thought process was that he wants to defend all those hands against Johnny and take the sizable pot against what he perceives as likely a much weaker hand. I mean he knows Johnny isn't in there with nothing.

Explain to me please : )

how u gonna even if u fold cosmo?? you still up in la? i might go tomorrow for a few days

On February 12 2012 21:18 rememp wrote: Show nested quote + On February 12 2012 20:28 player999 wrote: why would he shove 77/88/J9/QJ/JT/JJ/98 on an empty side pot wtf? You are way better than me. Thus I yield to your opinion. Does this mean he shoves Q10 and 109? Or did you just forget to add those in? My thought process was that he wants to defend all those hands against Johnny and take the sizable pot against what he perceives as likely a much weaker hand. I mean he knows Johnny isn't in there with nothing. Explain to me please : )

why would he bluff when there is no side pot? so he can risk a lot and get 0$ when hero folds?

only question here is do we beat his value range

On February 12 2012 21:18 rememp wrote: and take the sizable pot against what he perceives as likely a much weaker hand.

take how, when the other guy is all in?

On February 12 2012 22:41 player999 wrote: Show nested quote + On February 12 2012 21:18 rememp wrote: and take the sizable pot against what he perceives as likely a much weaker hand. take how, when the other guy is all in?

So what is his value range if he doesn't shove any of those things? Just air or everything that beats us?

value ranges dont contain air. ranges might contain air, value ranges contain value hands.

and as I said, it makes 0 sense for him to have air since bluffing awards him 0 chips given he loses the main pot anyway.

On February 12 2012 22:58 player999 wrote: value ranges dont contain air. ranges might contain air, value ranges contain value hands. and as I said, it makes 0 sense for him to have air since bluffing awards him 0 chips given he loses the main pot anyway.

Oh okay, well I never thought he was bluffing as it made no sense which is why I didn't include any bluffs in the range I assigned. But then you went ahead and said he would never shove 7 of the 9 hands I put down. So all that is left is 2 hands we beat and 6 we do not beat. Is that then his realistic value range?

q10, 109, 1010, 99, qq, j8, kj, 78

My initial thought process is he wouldn't be shoving these hands because he would want more value and would make a half pot bet, and that he would be shoving the seven hands you discounted because they get johnny cosmo out of the hand and he is playing for a sizable pot against what he conceives as a much weaker hand from fish who is already all in.

My thought process was that cosmo looks to have a much stronger hand than fish so villain wants cosmo out.

On February 12 2012 23:34 rememp wrote: Oh okay, well I never thought he was bluffing

77/88/J9/QJ/JT/JJ/98 are bluffs

On February 12 2012 23:34 rememp wrote: he would be shoving the seven hands you discounted because they get johnny cosmo out of the hand and he is playing for a sizable pot against what he conceives as a much weaker hand from fish who is already all in.

how can the fish not have 77 beat??

On February 12 2012 23:34 rememp wrote: My thought process was that cosmo looks to have a much stronger hand than fish so villain wants cosmo out.

sure, but he still have to beat the fish, who obviously can beat 77, 88 or Tx
op said nothing about him being completely braindead insane

I see. Okay so what is he shoving with?

Or what is his shoving range and can Cosmo call?

I'm actually going to apologize for posting in high stakes, because I only play 1/2 - 2/5 live and this is not even close to the same likely. In the game I play in I assigned the correct ranges I believe but it is obviously different.

I used to never post here (in high stakes) but there isn't a lot of activity on LP right now so I figured I would.

Player999 what do you think he is shoving with?

How would we calculate pot odds in this case?

For the side pot we're getting 1:1 which is pretty much a breakeven call if the villan has QQ+ in his range and T9 as value hands (along with the hands that beat us).


2,024 games 0.001 secs 2,024,000 games/sec

Board: 6c 9h Qs Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.852% 49.85% 00.00% 1009 0.00 { 6h6s }
Hand 1: 50.148% 50.15% 00.00% 1015 0.00 { QQ+, TT-99, T9s, 87s, T9o, 87o }

Not sure if we should include semibluffs in his range because of the shorty fish in the pot, I don't think he'd checkraise with an openender or gutshot.

Furthermore after the action, our hand looks pretty strong by flatting a checkraise in a three way pot, and I think more often hands like QQ+ would check/get to showdown after flop action (if he even flats preflop with these hands), removing those from his likely shoving range. Lower two pairs (which we have blockers for) I feel would be doing the same thing and not shoving the turn.

T9 would be the only value hand we beat that might shove the turn, and even then it's probably not 100% of the time as a set is likely in our range and probably the only hands calling a shove. If he is trying to bluff us off our hand (which we are likely unknown to him) to scoop the pot from the fish then I guess kudos to him.

That means I think in order to call a shove, we have to be confident that we are ahead of the fish by a large margin to scoop that pot and add it to our odds to call. With T9 in his range:

1,364 games 0.000 secs 272,800 games/sec

Board: 6c 9h Qs Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.563% 38.56% 00.00% 526 0.00 { 6h6s }
Hand 1: 61.437% 61.44% 00.00% 838 0.00 { TT-99, T9s, 87s, T9o, 87o }

Including the main pot we're getting about 2:1 so we call. Without T9 as a value hand though we'd be about a 4:1 dog and obviously fold.

I'd fold if on tilt. Call if I think my game has been super awesome as he flips over T9.

this^^

thanks guys, I talked to my brother about this and told him my range, and he instantly said guy is showing up with 78 a huge percentage of the time, so this makes a lot more sense

On February 13 2012 11:04 tynuji wrote: How would we calculate pot odds in this case? For the side pot we're getting 1:1 which is pretty much a breakeven call if the villan has QQ+ in his range and T9 as value hands (along with the hands that beat us). 2,024 games 0.001 secs 2,024,000 games/sec Board: 6c 9h Qs Td Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 49.852% 49.85% 00.00% 1009 0.00 { 6h6s } Hand 1: 50.148% 50.15% 00.00% 1015 0.00 { QQ+, TT-99, T9s, 87s, T9o, 87o } Not sure if we should include semibluffs in his range because of the shorty fish in the pot, I don't think he'd checkraise with an openender or gutshot. Furthermore after the action, our hand looks pretty strong by flatting a checkraise in a three way pot, and I think more often hands like QQ+ would check/get to showdown after flop action (if he even flats preflop with these hands), removing those from his likely shoving range. Lower two pairs (which we have blockers for) I feel would be doing the same thing and not shoving the turn. T9 would be the only value hand we beat that might shove the turn, and even then it's probably not 100% of the time as a set is likely in our range and probably the only hands calling a shove. If he is trying to bluff us off our hand (which we are likely unknown to him) to scoop the pot from the fish then I guess kudos to him. That means I think in order to call a shove, we have to be confident that we are ahead of the fish by a large margin to scoop that pot and add it to our odds to call. With T9 in his range: 1,364 games 0.000 secs 272,800 games/sec Board: 6c 9h Qs Td Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 38.563% 38.56% 00.00% 526 0.00 { 6h6s } Hand 1: 61.437% 61.44% 00.00% 838 0.00 { TT-99, T9s, 87s, T9o, 87o } Including the main pot we're getting about 2:1 so we call. Without T9 as a value hand though we'd be about a 4:1 dog and obviously fold. I'd fold if on tilt. Call if I think my game has been super awesome as he flips over T9.

Think T9o and 87o should be removed from the range. Pretty sure tight regs don't defend their bb's to EP opens w T9o and 87o

Without T9o and 87o these become the percentages.

1,188 games 0.000 secs 237,600 games/sec

Board: 6c 9h Td Qs
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.263% 51.26% 00.00% 609 0.00 { 6h6s }
Hand 1: 48.737% 48.74% 00.00% 579 0.00 { QQ+, TT-99, T9s, 87s }


---
528 games 0.000 secs 105,600 games/sec

Board: 6c 9h Td Qs
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.864% 23.86% 00.00% 126 0.00 { 6h6s }
Hand 1: 76.136% 76.14% 00.00% 402 0.00 { TT-99, T9s, 87s }

No change in equity really if he has overpairs (still essentially a flip) but now it becomes a definite fold if we take out the offsuit hand combos where he doesn't have overpairs. This makes sense I think because now we are beat by 13 out of 14 combos (92.8%) instead of 14 out of 16 (87.5%).

so johnny did you call and see 78s or 109s?

I folded

Thought I was playing my super A game too

On February 14 2012 06:13 JonnyCosMo wrote: Thought I was playing my super A game too

meaning you folded and villain won the pot with 109s v fish?

with TT/99

From a live play perspective, do you think it makes a difference if he timed on turn and then shoved instead of timing on flop before putting in the last $30? The only thing I can think of is villain potentially trying to drive us out on flop with a hand like JQhh to flip with the fishs' range and he figures you cant possibly put him on a bluff on turn jamming into a dry sidepot

On February 14 2012 12:43 gawdawaful wrote: From a live play perspective, do you think it makes a difference if he timed on turn and then shoved instead of timing on flop before putting in the last $30? The only thing I can think of is villain potentially trying to drive us out on flop with a hand like JQhh to flip with the fishs' range and he figures you cant possibly put him on a bluff on turn jamming into a dry sidepot

I feel like I'm getting trolled by someone whos in LA right now. Villan had exactly QJhh in the hand. And most of the time I don't think his timing makes all that much of a difference unless they instantly do an action. If Villan waits 10 seconds or 10 minutes, it usually can mean the same thing. Instant actions are different, they are pre-planned with some kind of reason behind them that is usually easy to figure out. You see fish do instant actions in spots where they have strong hands because they are scared of what cards can come and they secretly would rather you fold than call and suck out.

On February 12 2012 21:18 rememp wrote: Show nested quote + On February 12 2012 20:28 player999 wrote: why would he shove 77/88/J9/QJ/JT/JJ/98 on an empty side pot wtf? You are way better than me. Thus I yield to your opinion. Does this mean he shoves Q10 and 109? Or did you just forget to add those in? My thought process was that he wants to defend all those hands against Johnny and take the sizable pot against what he perceives as likely a much weaker hand. I mean he knows Johnny isn't in there with nothing. Explain to me please : )

Does this mean I was right? Or is he still showing up with 78s, 109s way more often? I don't want to be results oriented but I want to know if my thought process was in fact correct.

yes but you incorrectly included hands that cant beat the fish's

On February 14 2012 16:11 player999 wrote: yes but you incorrectly included hands that cant beat the fish's

kk thanks

On February 14 2012 06:12 JonnyCosMo wrote: I folded

i don't understand why you wouldn't just fold the flop if you're going to fold the turn...?

On February 14 2012 19:42 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On February 14 2012 06:12 JonnyCosMo wrote: I folded i don't understand why you wouldn't just fold the flop if you're going to fold the turn...?

Truuuuust me when I say that wasnt the original plan. There were other things that went into me folding lol...

On February 15 2012 17:50 JonnyCosMo wrote: Show nested quote + On February 14 2012 19:42 TimDawg wrote:   On February 14 2012 06:12 JonnyCosMo wrote: I folded i don't understand why you wouldn't just fold the flop if you're going to fold the turn...? Truuuuust me when I say that wasnt the original plan. There were other things that went into me folding lol...

Lol been there, done that

Self owning yourself for whatever reasons is much worse live

So i thought I was soul reading.... then....

But did he hit ?

On February 16 2012 16:23 kingpowa wrote: But did he hit ?

Yes he hit a King, pro fold imo

wow must been pretty tilting, did you keep playing? what was the result of this session?

not tilting at all when the guy hits the river

On February 18 2012 06:45 player999 wrote: not tilting at all when the guy hits the river

Truuuuuui

On February 18 2012 02:33 casinocasino wrote: wow must been pretty tilting, did you keep playing? what was the result of this session?

Pretty much snap quit :-p