J9cc by thewh00sel

9 handed Live Game, 5/10 NL

Seat 1, 1500: loose/randomly aggressive, mostly passive fish
seats 2-5 irrelevent
Seat 6 BTN 4600: Villain. young euro, seems competent yet easily tilted
Seat 7, SB 3000: tight reg
Seat 8, BB 5000: Hero

utg calls 10
BTN raises to 60
SB calls
Hero Calls
UTG calls

Flop (240)



SB checks
Hero Bets 160
UTG folds
BTN calls
SB folds

Turn (560)



Hero checks
BTN bets 380
Hero raises to 1380
BTN calls

River (3320)



Hero ? (3000 effective left)


thought process through the turn was:
- Lead flop bc fish is utg and I can get him all in by the river with top pair if I just lead now.

- Turn I figure he's going to have to bet like his entire range to protect and if he has any overpairs that have a club or bare Ac he might ambitiously peal and sets obviously have to call.

- Then the river is where I'm debating whether a shove or check-fold is best. Here's why: He probably (if competent which i think he is) will find a fold with lower flushes and sets/overpairs, and he will probably check back a set and lower flushes as well. So if I check the river I would only expect bigger flushes to shove and everything else to check, but maybe I'm way off on that assumption. I guess the question becomes do I think there is enough of a "hero call factor" to benefit me if I think he calls always when I'm beat, and calls like a hero amount (5-10%) of the time when I have him beat.

Folding preflop is better I think but I rarely fold pre in these spots anyway when playing live

I like the way you played this hand. I would just shove river happily and not think about it too hard

flop and turn thought process looks good. I don't know about check folding river, seems insane to me. But if your thought process is correct then we know that he is extremely exploitable here, and we can bluff him every single time on the river here and make tons of money. So much money, that i wouldn't worry about this spot at all.

whoosel I don't play this high, but I've been playing a sick amount of live hours lately and I really really think at most he has a q high flush here because he's shoving turn with ace and king high flushes so often. I think if you bet like 1500 or 1700 into the river he calls with ak, all sets and lower flushes. He could even have aa or kk here. I think he also calls with a q high flush. I think you beat too much of his range to not fire for value here.

Perhaps higher though people protect their flushes more though, but your turn bet looks like a set an awful lot too and so I expect him to shove ace and king high flush and call for control with q high flush and less.

bet bet bet/evaluate.

I like your idea behind check/raise but it's terrible in terms of balance and risk of losing value. What hands are you check/folding or check/calling turn anyway?

Also, c/f doesn't make much sense after check/raising the turn. I think you may be giving players too much credit. I'd just stick it in like Tim suggested.

clear bet and never a check fold

u could bet like 2200 and fold to the jam too ^_^

If you don't think you can jam the river then I don't like the turn c/r at all. If this is as much as you think you can profitably get in, then you might as well 3 barrel and not risk a turn checkthrough.

On January 24 2012 01:53 AndrewSong wrote: bet bet bet/evaluate. I like your idea behind check/raise but it's terrible in terms of balance and risk of losing value. What hands are you check/folding or check/calling turn anyway? Also, c/f doesn't make much sense after check/raising the turn. I think you may be giving players too much credit. I'd just stick it in like Tim suggested.

On January 24 2012 04:48 Rekrul wrote: clear bet and never a check fold u could bet like 2200 and fold to the jam too ^_^

i prefer b/b/b (and fold probably unless hes a sicko) as well. i also agree with Tim that folding pre is by far the best play.

likewise with regard to what Rek said I always bet almost same exact amount on river and fold to jam. it's sick exploitable if people know your game really well but it's live so that probably doesnt happen. check/folding seems bad only because i think some live players will value bet lower flushes and bluff with Ac Xx

edit: or turn a set into a bluff that they were planning on turning into a bluff if you checked riv or it came a club

On January 24 2012 01:53 AndrewSong wrote: bet bet bet/evaluate. I like your idea behind check/raise but it's terrible in terms of balance and risk of losing value. What hands are you check/folding or check/calling turn anyway? Also, c/f doesn't make much sense after check/raising the turn. I think you may be giving players too much credit. I'd just stick it in like Tim suggested.

AcTx+ maybe, some KQ one club hand I decided to lead with, 99-JJ with a club? stuff like that.

you would check those hands? seems easier to just fire a 2nd barrel :o
but i guess that's andrew's point :O


the silver lining of online poker being illegal is we get to hear from nolan/andrew much more often

On January 23 2012 23:59 thewh00sel wrote: Villain. young euro, seems competent yet easily tilted

Check-fold vs this description? The heck?

I think you can shove here but not necessarily be happy about it. Its one of those least bad option type situations.

I bet/bet/bet as a standard, when I do c/r turn it's with the thought that villan knows (and is probably suspicious at the time) that I'm capable of bluffing 400bbs+ deep AND I have reason to believe he's itching to make a big call, therefore with that said I'd play J9cc like I'd play any AXcc because I made the two hands the same thing. If check/folding is ever what you think you have to do on this river, then your turn c/r plan is terrible. I prolly bet $1800-2100 on river.

it tends to be a terrible idea to c/r the turn for value with the idea of check folding on every river. if you c/r turn you have to bet brick rivers

i would just b/b/b with the possibility of b/b/check to trap with a read tho

i dont understand why you CR the turn if you don't wanna play an all in pot.. it's baffling

instead of c/r turn u can overbet turn and then bet a normal 3/4 amount on riv. imo this reps a bluff and gets much more value from worse than c/r turn

good Check/raise for info... now check fold

I just shoved river obviously because I think that the hand is pretty much over on the turn if a brick falls and he traps me with bigger flushes and is in a position to hero call a lot of stuff. It was obv CR for value given my read on his range, but sometimes after you do something during a hand you wish you would have done something different and after I CR the turn I felt like he wasn't thinking about if he was ahead or not, but just thinking about how to play the hand based on his mannerisms which is usually indicative of the nuts. I left that read out since it wasn't certain and is a little results oriented since he did show me the nuts when he called. I also wanted to see what other people's standard lines were when flopping big this deep.

Either way, I guess I like just bet/bet/betting better since if I'm raised I can get away pretty easily, but my first instinct in any hand is how to size my bets to get all the money in regardless of what I have. I guess that's not always the best course of action when you are 400+bb deep. Thanks for the analyses/trollin'

I normally would bet every street too, but what you gonna do guys if you bet and he re raise you on the turn ?