yo gg your pf is really bad man, have you looked twice at it? You called 3 bb more oop with 45o against a 74 bb stack.... ooops?

dude i check/raise a ton of flops

theres nothing wrong with playing this hand preflop heads up..

he's probably really bad, i don't think calling this pf increases your winrate longterm against this guy with this hand. Thats my advice at least, take it or leave it

its really gay.. unless u get this exact situation u will rarellyyyyy do well with this kind of hand in that pos...

i dont like it at all

im not calling specifically to flop well, although this will do some of the time

im calling pre to c/r a ton of flops that dont hit him v.hard

theres lots of ways i can win this pot regardless of hand

I agree with rob, pf call was really gross.

even so this is still going to be marginal as hell if even +EV

dont agree at all

would like it if some of u at least came up with an arguement other than 'it doesnt flop well often enough' which is fairly irrelevant since its not why i called in the first place

you bunch of nits

On March 04 2008 00:30 Baal wrote: you bunch of nits

On March 04 2008 00:29 ggplz wrote: would like it if some of u at least came up with an arguement other than 'it doesnt flop well often enough' which is fairly irrelevant since its not why i called in the first place

Are you calling OOP w/ virtually any 2?

uhm, not any 2, hands that can flop fairly good sometimes, like offsuit/suited connectors, suited 1 gappers etc

against some players this is horrible because u are literally just trying to flop something big, against this guy who is v.straight forward and is gonna give my c/rs a ton of respect its v.profitable to call and c/r
also it makes him actually play a hand other than just opening,limping, whatever every hand, we actually play some postflop where i have the biggest edge.

also i dont 3bet very much generally so im mostly flatting a lot of different hands oop, i kinda like it

idk i want u to rip my arguement to shit cuz atm it seems pretty solid to me

you know that 45o is probably one of the 10 worst hands HU right?

Pair strength is far more important than anything else when determining hand strength the shorter it gets. HU, 23o is worse than 27o. You don't seem to have any idea about hand strength as it relates to number of players at the table =

I would say that a hand like T7o is arguably more powerful than 45o HU because it's pairs are higher and that far outweighs the time you make straights.

Are you calling T7o pf?

I mean, if there are reasons outside of relative hand strength for calling, then your cards don't really matter.

I approach it like this - as it stands, calling pre and c/ring lots of flops is profitable vs him because he's just gonna give up and/or get frustrated & fold a LOT, with a hand like 45o i can flop something good some of the time which just adds to the equity of the play itself.

Even if its neutral EV or slightly -EV to do this, its +EV overall vs my c/r range when he starts to get tilted and i adjust it accordingly. Really didnt think that he would be making moves v.often at this stage though, he's just not that type of opponent.

You didn't answer my question.

Are you calling T7o in this spot?

If the answer is no, you shouldn't be calling 45o, since it is a weaker hand.

Yes, of course, T7o is a better hand than 45o in terms of flopping a pair, but i have 45o & im not concerned with flopping a pair. Flopping a pair OOP isn't flopping well w/ 45o. Im looking for gutshots, open enders that kind of stuff to take the hand further but its tough for him to continue on a T65r flop for example.

EDIT: If you aren't calling T7o, then you shouldn't be calling 45o.

No, im not calling T7o its never gonna flop hard enough that i can get aggro on the turn or w/e

like, flop comes A27r, i check he cbets and i c/r or c/c, i AM flatting AT and weaker suited aces OOP so this board does hit me and i can play them the same way.

when did i claim to call a raise with that hand? =o

On March 04 2008 00:51 FrEaK[S.sIR] wrote: EDIT: If you aren't calling T7o, then you shouldn't be calling 45o.

the kind of boards T7o hits are different than 45o

like you're gonna see a flop like J83 and want to checkraise or float or w/e
that kinda board gets a lot more action imo from a bunch of gutshots (if the player decides to get aggressive) and where more importantly, people are more confident in their pair of eights to your c/ring.

on a board like A26 or 423 its much tougher for them to continue imo

Are you actually trying to argue that you're calling with this hand because when you want to check raise the boards that you hit, their hand is likely to be so bad that they won't continue? Do you have any idea how asinine that sounds?

I'm going to call with shitty cards because when I hit and start putting lots of money in the pot, their hand is likely to be so bad that they won't continue!

Brilliant.

I already stated im not playing this hand because of its ability to flop something good, he's not gonna have a hand that often when he opens & i feel i can take it away from him often.

Its not like T7o is any different other than flopping a pair which u cant value bet vs this guy anyway, he's not calling flop c/rs light or continuing in general beyond the flop without something
look, he called down with AJ & i know he plays TP and probably better like this because he's done it several times already

Your reasoning is so flawed and bad and horribly skewed.

I'm not even going to discuss it anymore. You have no idea about relative hand strength and if you are calling for reasons outside of relative hand strength then you shouldn't be discussing why your pf call wasn't bad because your cards don't matter.

Like if you're calling and then check raising most flops because he doesn't play back at you a lot then your cards don't matter. It doesn't matter how well you flop. It doesn't matter that flops that hit T7o are more liekly to continue than 45o. You aren't calling to flop well. You're calling to move them off it. Your cards don't matter.

Stop trying to argue multiple sides of an argument for a hand when it doesn't relate to the hand. It's after the fact justification as opposed to solid reasoning.

Yeah, you're right.

Freak, i'd like to thank you for taking the time to discuss this hand with me, appreciate it a lot.

Not sure exactly what u mean by this though:

Stop trying to argue multiple sides of an argument for a hand when it doesn't relate to the hand. It's after the fact justification as opposed to solid reasoning.